Extinguishers in Domestic Property

[Tom Sutton]

A query I recieved recently from a landlord who wishes to provide fire extinguishers in social housing rented property, the advice from fire brigades appears to be don't provide them as they would prefer the occupier to get out as fast as possible? also they would not be trained in the use?
Would they prefer damp tea towels instead of fire blankets?


Any comments.

[Chris Houston]

So the fire brigade would prefer for people to allow a small paper basket fire to grow to burn out their whole house?  It may spread to the neighbours, who's to say if they are able to self evacuate?

Seems a bit odd to me.

It makes sence to at least give them the means to tackle a small fire.

Most won't have any contents insurance so will loose everything they own. should they have a large fire.

[Martin Burford]

twsutton

I find your posting alarming, as a former FRO.....Did you receive this info from the landlord or the Fire Authority ?
Conqueror

[Ashley Wood]

A few days ago there was something similar on the IOSH chat forum.

[AnthonyB]

In my city, traditional Council advice for buildings split into bedsits/flats was a fire blanket & 2.27 kg powder extinguisher to each cooking area and 9 litre water to each landing.

Certainly a fire blanket is a wise minmum as it can be used over a person, TV or waste paper bin as well as the usual chip pan fire, plus won't be at risk from the usual problem of the damp tea towel drying out & igniting (has happened). They are also maintenance free.

An extinguisher brings maintenance problems unless you use 'maintenance free' sealed units that only require user visuals, but you must replace them every 5 years. A powder extinguisher is often advised, but if going for sealed units double check it's ABC Powder, not BC powder as most sealed units are aimed at the automotive market

[kurnal]

Noted Ashleys comments on a similar thread on another forum. Im not surprised. Its so often the case that the lesser the qualification the more extreme the recommended solution.  The jobsworth approach.
Why cant these people see that if it aint common sense it aint Health and Safety.
The same attitude prevails in some workplaces where extinguishers are not provided because of the risk someone may be hurt using one. So when the little fire develops and traps loads of people its ok- and much better than having someone take a tiny bit of risk to protect others by their action.

[Mike Buckley]

I remember this debate in "Are H&S advisors oversteeping the mark" and I stick with the point that firms may tell employees not to use fire extiguishers if they haven't been trained how to use them. However the idea of not providing extinguishers at all because someone might get hurt using one is boggling.

How do these workplaces get round the provision of fire fighting equipment requirement?

[jokar]

I do not think I can ever recall fire extinguishers being sited in the shared accommodation of a HMO.  Hostels, sheltered housing and like premises yes but, isn't this the remit of the Local Authority?

[Chris Houston]

How do these workplaces get round the provision of fire fighting equipment requirement?

My my opinion, it's a legal requirement to provide fire extinguishers (Fire Precautions Workplace Regs).  It's also a requirement of the same piece of legislation that suitable number of staff are trained.  Other health and safety legislation dictates that when one provides an employee with a piece of safety equipment, they must be trained to use that piece of equipment.

So, I don't see any way of getting round this.  They must be provided, as must training.

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

But this is rented accomodation, the occupiers are not employed so the WP regs will not necessarily apply. (unless the employ a cleaner)

If there is a turnover of residents, then it will become expensive for the landlord to keep providing training.

Is it better to have someone attempting to tackle a fire that doesn't know how to use the equipment so possibly worsening the situation and putting others at risk OR is it better that they evacuate and call 999?

How do you justify letting them tackle a small fire, which may get out of control with intervention, and not evacuating?
Life is the priority here, not the property ...... that can be replaced after all.

What about residents interfering with the provided equipment? Who is to say that the extinguisher will be full the first time it is picked up for use?

My advice would be not to provide them and give the residents clear instructions to evacuate the building and call 999. We are the experts, not them (unless of course one of the residents is a firefighter!)

[Gasmeter]

The Northern Ireland Housing Executive which is responsible for most public housing here, specifies in its HMO technical standard:

1. A multi-risk extinguisher of 13A rating situated on each floor
2. A fire blanket in every room used for cooking in accordance with BS6575
3. A CO2 extinguisher adjacent to any incoming mains electric supply cupboard
4. Extinguishers shall be installed and maintained in accordance with BS EN-3:Part 3 and BS5306 Part 3 (1985)

The issue of training hasn't surfaced as yet, although it is a requirement that staff in hostels are trained but written instructions are often provided in good HMOs in addition to those on the extinguisher body.

On balance I believe most residents feel safer having extinguishing means available and are usually savvy enough to use them, which is surely preferable to allowing a fire in a bin to develop into something serious.

[Chris Houston]

Is it better to have someone attempting to tackle a fire that doesn't know how to use the equipment so possibly worsening the situation and putting others at risk OR is it better that they evacuate and call 999?

How do you justify letting them tackle a small fire, which may get out of control with intervention, and not evacuating?

I would justify it as follows:

90% of Fires are put out by the public without any FRS intervention (Essex FRS gave me this figure themselves).  If you think that every tiny waste paper basket fire needs 4 fire fighters and a pump, you are kidding yourself.

By leaving such a fire, it will grow into a big fire.  This may then spread to neighbours accomodation putting them at risk.

Followinng your logic, one could argue that no where should be provided with fire extingiushers and we should all run away from every tiny fire.

My experience (as an insurance fire surveyor and a British Red Cross Fire Victim Support) is that people do try and put most fires out, usualy with a hose/basin of water etc.  I can't see why they should be denied equipment that is designed for this purpose.  Life safety is of course the priority, but allowing the tiny fires to grow into big ones doesn't seem to be the best way to protect life.

[ian gough]

Chris, your logical conclusions are sound - but the law does not necessarily follow this. The difficulty is proving that fire extinguishers are essential for life safety when there is adequate means of escape.

[Chris Houston]

It's funny that there is debate about the most basic of issues.

Image as you are siting reading this post that you drop your cigarette onto the paper on your desk.  Now what would you rather do?  Would it be to easily put out this fire, or will you be knocking on all your neighbours doors to make sure they get away from the inferno that you let develop?

Irrespective of your answer (and most people I have met tend to favour the water option) I think most of us would at least like to have the benefit of the choice.

Another way of looking at this: How many people have been injured of killed trying to put out a fire? Compare this against how many fires we have, assuming you accept that 90% of these are put out by the public, putting out small fires doesn't seem to be a risk we are unprepared to take at the moment, it's only the provision of the best tools for the job that causes debate.

[messy]

Chris, I totally agree with you.

In this over cautious 21st century world we live in, it has really come to something when someone should be advised to turn their back on a waste bin fire and call 999 just in case they break their nail getting the safety pin out!!

Training is fine and perhaps the optimum in some circumstances, but what ever happened to common sense and allowing someone to determine their own personal responsibility. Have we replaced that human trait by legislation and red tape?

This thread originated from an enquiry about domestic property, and as such, the circumstances are completely different from a  fire in a commercial environment. One may be happy to walk away from a fire in the office, but how many would walk away from a fire in their own home without having a go.

Yes, Yes, I know all the CFS advice and stuff about "get out....call the FB out", but there is something deep in the psyche of humans which tends to make them protect their homes. I have been to scores of fires where punters have been injured whilst using a variety of unorthodox methods of putting the fire out which do not involve extinguishers. Would they have received such injuries if extinguishers had been available? Probably not.

The bottom line is that I reckon that, on balance, a building is safer with extinguishers - with or without trained staff - than it is without any portable FFE at all.