Radio fire alarm installation

[Philthy Bar-Stweard]

I'm an electrician, I have been asked to install a fire alarm for friends of mine who have a very large house that is used as a guest house. I have been thinking of fitting a wireless fire alarm, but cant believe some of the prices for heat detectors / smoke detectors etc. I would require roughly 50 combined sounder / detectors, and 20 heat / smoke detectors with a control panel. Can any of you guys give me a reasonable idea of what this should cost ?. I work mostly offshore at the moment but have fitted fire alarms several times in the past, it's not rocket science, and I realise that a competent person would be required to give it the once over / and a check up every now and again. It's just that I am dismayed to put it bluntly, at the prices I have seen. I had a chat with the fire officer this morning, he recommended the wireless system, but my friends at this guest house are going to be seriously pissed off if they have to deal with some of the eye-watering prices I have seen.....and I thought that the price of technology was coming down......Mrs Bar-Stweard just bought a new toaster from ASDA for £4.00....that's 400 pennies.....I've just seen a single smoke detector for 60 times that......some one is having a laugh .......shurely

[Graeme]

To be straight to the point Radio equipment is far more expensive then hardwired but if this is a large installation then you first work out what your cost would be hardwired then compare.
You should be able to install a radio system in a couple of days that size,weeks for hardwired.

There are also the advantages of no cable costs,trunking etc and no mess.


p.s

since fire alarms are not rocket science then i take it that you up to speed on the current c.o.p and the ones you fitted previously fully comply?

[Wiz]

A suitable wireless fire alarm system for this sort of application will have to use equipment that has to meet a very detailed technical specification and is therefore very expensive to manufacture in comparison to non-wireless equipment. Just as a simple example, the transmitters (detectors/call points etc.) will have to 'report' to the control equipment on a regular basis so that any failure will be ascertained at the control panel within the same time periods that a similar fault would be 'noticed' on a wired system. There are also, obviously, important technical requirements for the radio transmission element to prevent interference or 'unwanted' alarms etc. All of this makes wireless devices very hi-tech and consequently expensive.
There are some wireless fire alarm system components that are cheaper, but these are intended for use as a 'fire' add-on to a domestic wireless intruder alarm system and are almost certainly not suitable for a guest house requirement.
There are a number of wireless fire alarm system manufacturers in the U.K. and consequently it is a competitive market, so one would assume that pricing is competitive, but the equipment is just expensive to manufacture.
My understanding is the control panel (cie) will cost in the region of £800, automatic detectors and call points (mcp) approx. £150 each, alarm sounders (awd) approx £200 and a combined automatic detector & sounder approx. £ 280. All prices are each plus vat.
Wireless equipment manufacturers are inclined to advise potential buyers that the savings in wiring and installation labour largely offset the increased costs of wireless equipment. My experience is that wireless systems really only come into their own where it is either very difficult to install wiring (listed buildings etc.) or where the time and disruption caused by installing wiring (public buildings with areas that cannot be closed down).
It is also often suggested that wireless fire alarm systems are considerably more expensive to maintain with the requirement of regular replacement of a large number of batteries and the higher cost of replacing equipment should it fail.
My advice is to install a wired system unless it is impossible to do so.

[Philthy Bar-Stweard]

Thanks for the replies guys, it is a listed building, with several very rare features dating back 4 / 500 years. I can see the obvious benefits of course of fitting a wireless system, and can appreciate that wireless kit would be more expensive......but we all carry mobile phones......that are given away ...."FREE"....and they have radio bits and pieces in them .... that don't down planes.... or blow up filling stations.....or assassinate heart pace maker patients. I would imagine that hard wired and radio  detectors both "trigger" with the same or similar technology, the only real difference is in sending the signal back to the panel. A 1GB memory chip for a mobile phone costs £40 / £50 and look what they can do, where as a wireless detector only has one function...when it triggers it sends a radio bleep.....you could buy a computer for less than some of these detectors......I smell a rat in this malarkey......I think that the hellff "n" safety Gestapo are on a "Phishing" expedition. My mates at the guest house are in for a bit of a shock......I've been telling them for the best part of twenty years that they should have had a fire alarm fitted.....to no avail.....it looks like they might have to take some what of a hit ....me thinks !!!!!!

[kurnal]

Do they have to have it all in a one off big bang event? Why not start them off gently going down a route of covering key escape routes first and gradually building up over a period of time? This could also be done in conjunction with gradual planned improvements in other areas such as fire separation of the exit routes?
If the place has been there for 500 years why do we need to fix all its problems in 3 weeks?
Any improvement is a move in the right direction.

[Graeme]

As mentioned Radio is ideal for listed buildings.Given the choice i would wire every time but sometimes it's not possible.
They will have to install a fire alarm anyway and  i'm suprised that they don't have one now.

[Ashley Wood]

I am also concerned that they have not had an alarm system fitted, it makes me concerned about other fire safety issues!

Regarding the cost of wireless alarm systems and the cost of other consumable electronic items. It is all about market volumes. Mobile phones sell in there hundreds of thousands here in the UK each year, radio alarms do not. When you look at the cost of a radio system compared to a fully 'hard wired' fire alarm, then they are in fact comparable due to the savings in time and materials. You only mention the cost of the detectors, have you looked at the cost of the control panels? A radio detector is not just a 'switch' as you implied. It in fact passes information back to the panel about its condition, its address/location, etc. If you want to compare costs of detectors, take a look at conventional or addressable detector costs! These are sold in there millions and are still costly!

Has your friend considered taking out a lease on an alarm system? I know a company that provides this for all types of fire systems. This appears to be a cost effective way of buying an expensive item as it is very tax efficient. E-mail me if you want there details.

Ashley

[Martin Burford]

kurnel

hold on a minute.....do we know how many people sleep in this guest house...and phased work over a long period of time!.....I don't think so!
Conqueror

[kurnal]

Maybe your,e right Conqueror. I was making lots of assumptions I know, and number 1 is that it is a former non certificated hotel- ie less than 6 persons accommodated and no accommodation for staff or guests below ground or above the first floor? Otherwise it has a certificate ( or should have) and surely if so would have a fire alarm system?

The standard for non cert hotels, (duty of care only to the staff and guests) may be met by interlinked domestics eg  LD3 system  BS5839 part 6?
Yes in these circumstances a full L1 radio linked system is nice but theres something somewhere about reasonably practicable. Thats the assumption I was making from the information given.

[Chris Houston]

I'd guess you'll pay well over £100 per detector, and I would not be surprised if you had to pay double.

[David Rooney]

Roughly speaking,

£200 ish to supply and install a detector or call point
£300 ish for a combined detector sounder. - these units have twice the radio equipment - transmit and receive.

Plus panels and transponders if needed.

Most QS's in London renerally expect £220-£250 per point for a hard wired install.

Yes prices are dear, but add up the cost of hiding cables, closing rooms off while you wire, lifting carpets etc. there isn't always a huge difference.

Email me and I'll send you the EMS price list.

And sparky or not, these are not like any other panel you will have ever installed. EMS won't sell to you unless you have done their training. We have installed Radio FA in a lot of West End Theatres. Fine till you have a problem.....then you need to be a computer nerd !!

[Graeme]

Lifting carpets Dave!!!

This is not the security industry were on about...  

[Wiz]

Graeme, I'm sure David means you have to lift the carpets up to gain access to the floorboards, not just to 'hide' the cables under it!!!

A number of years ago I carried out a review for a County Council and it revealed that the costs, over a five year period, for installing and maintaining a wireless fire alarm system were nearly 50% higher than for a comparable wired analogue addressable version. These costs included all equipment, installation, commissioning, servicing (including one complete battery replacement visit) and fault repairs.
However, this review related to;
(i) A RAFT system which,as far as we were aware, was the first wireless fire alarm system installed in an Elderly Persons Home anywhere in the U.K. and it had to be specially manufactured to comply with the requirements of BS5839 part 1 (which at that time mentioned wired systems only). Modern wireless systems are definitely cheaper and surely more reliable(!) now.
(ii) The installation was carried out on a non-listed fairly modern building that was undergoing complete refurbishment at the time of installation, and was not being used at the time of the refurbishment/fire alarm system installation. The wired system costs would have been higher if the building had been occupied.
In my experience, whilst the costs of installing a modern wireless system against a wired system are very close (except where the building is 'listed' or occupied, where wireless could be cheaper), the costs to maintain and repair will be much higher over a period of time.
However the savings made in installing a wireless system in a listed or occupied building bring the overall costs, even with future maintenance and repair costs, very close to a wired system.

[Graeme]

I know Wiz. Sarcasm does not come over too well on the net that's why i added a smilie.

[Wiz]

Yeah, it's hard to get things over in writing. I knew your comment was in jest (even without the smiley face) but I thought I'd add a comment for those who didn't get what you were saying and, of course, I had to mention your name so they knew which comment I was refering to!!!!