BSEN 54 Vs BS5839

[Chris Houston]

Fire alarm panels have two main categories of end users.  The first group are the building's normal residents.  The second group are fire fighters.

[Allen Higginson]

i find that the end user does not look at the zonal led's on the panel but the lcd first on an a/a system.
Never known for text to be corrupted due to a fault  only from incorrect programming.

True Graeme but (as Chris has said) it only applies if you know where the janitors store or the HR office is in the building.A zone layout (which should be beside the panel) with the zonal LED gets the fire crew heading in the right direction - certainly further investigation to the exact location via the text description can further assist them.

[kurnal]

I agree with Buzzard and also find some of the two or three line LCD displays very hard to read and understand in a crisis- especially when you have to keep scrolling down line after line of text and when abbreviations are used. I would swap clear zone  indication for poor LCD addressible indication  any time.
One I have been working on today gave the following information -  Fire - call point Domain 1 Node 3 lp 2 O/S 20 Z23 . Very helpful!

[David Rooney]

i find that the end user does not look at the zonal led's on the panel but the lcd first on an a/a system.
Never known for text to be corrupted due to a fault  only from incorrect programming.

This is true, but we look after some multi tenanted offices whereby the text is matched to the name of the occupying company. - Yes I have told the Landlord this is a silly idea, but it does help to simplify the identification of  the origin of an alarm condition, until a company moves out of course and 30 odd devices need re-texting.

On the subject of European Harmonisation, what harmonisation? - I think this only exists in the minds of political go getters and a few very rich businessmen (or are they one and the same?) who know the Brits will put up with anything "in the name of Europe".

I was in France recently and visited a few major towns, and looking at the standard of fire alarm systems and coverage in some of the bigger shops and offices was a joke.

I presume they are supposed to have a harmonised set of building regulations, DDA, Health and Safety, Fire Safety etc etc??

We are about as harmonious as a Les Dawson piano recital !!

[Mr. P]

But Mssr Dawson was very skilled, I'm sure we'll all agree.  So maybe there is someone out there who will sudenly have sitting up paying whole hearted attention with breath baited!  Or there again perhaps not.

At least if there is a floor plan and legend indicating where each head or zone is, it is not so critical how it is labelled.  Better than nothing.  Everyone in the role of advisor/assessor/enforcer must work down the same lists for continuity!

[Graeme]

I agree with Buzzard and also find some of the two or three line LCD displays very hard to read and understand in a crisis- especially when you have to keep scrolling down line after line of text and when abbreviations are used. I would swap clear zone  indication for poor LCD addressible indication  any time.
One I have been working on today gave the following information -  Fire - call point Domain 1 Node 3 lp 2 O/S 20 Z23 . Very helpful!

mcp on control panel 3 on the network,loop 2 pt 20 on zone 23.  simple really

[Allen Higginson]

I agree with Buzzard and also find some of the two or three line LCD displays very hard to read and understand in a crisis- especially when you have to keep scrolling down line after line of text and when abbreviations are used. I would swap clear zone  indication for poor LCD addressible indication  any time.
One I have been working on today gave the following information -  Fire - call point Domain 1 Node 3 lp 2 O/S 20 Z23 . Very helpful!

mcp on control panel 3 on the network,loop 2 pt 20 on zone 23.  simple really

Exactly!!Descriptions written by a tech head with no consideration for Joe Public :-).

[Wiz]

I agree with Buzzard and also find some of the two or three line LCD displays very hard to read and understand in a crisis- especially when you have to keep scrolling down line after line of text and when abbreviations are used. I would swap clear zone  indication for poor LCD addressible indication  any time.
One I have been working on today gave the following information -  Fire - call point Domain 1 Node 3 lp 2 O/S 20 Z23 . Very helpful!

mcp on control panel 3 on the network,loop 2 pt 20 on zone 23.  simple really

Graeme,
Very impressive! But I'm still a bit confused. Where is the 'Domain' bit explained in your 'translation'? And would you consider that O/S 20 could mean Outside room 20?
Maybe BS5839 should provide a recommendation for an approved format and layout of addressable panel messages. i.e something like Network Node/Loop No./Fire Zone/Address No./Device Type/Location Description

[John Webb]

Maybe BS5839 should provide a recommendation for an approved format and layout of addressable panel messages. i.e something like Network Node/Loop No./Fire Zone/Address No./Device Type/Location Description

I'd think it more logical for the Fire Service and occupants if the above information was given in the reverse order - both need to know the location of the apparent alarm first and foremost and the source from which it arises. The other information only becomes more relevent when it becomes clear after investigation some fault may exist and needs to be sorted out.

[Graeme]

The panel i am famillar with shows first activation zone first then the detector,then next etc.

Wiz-not suprised your confused by the text.It would mean nothing to someone not familair to programming control panels. Not very helpful as mentioned.

[Wiz]

Wiz-not suprised your confused by the text.It would mean nothing to someone not familair to programming control panels. Not very helpful as mentioned.

yeah, obviously. I have been in the business of designing, installing, commissioning and maintaining fire alarm systems since 1978 and have programmed configurations into hundreds of panels but mainly only Haes, Android, Ampac, Kentec, PSS, Morley, & some Gents addressable panels, but I have never come across the term DOMAIN as part of the external or internal network of
modules or nodes. I thought maybe you had 'sussed' it and could explain.

[Wiz]

Maybe BS5839 should provide a recommendation for an approved format and layout of addressable panel messages. i.e something like Network Node/Loop No./Fire Zone/Address No./Device Type/Location Description

I'd think it more logical for the Fire Service and occupants if the above information was given in the reverse order - both need to know the location of the apparent alarm first and foremost and the source from which it arises. The other information only becomes more relevent when it becomes clear after investigation some fault may exist and needs to be sorted out.

Sounds sensible. I wonder if BS would take it up?

[Graeme]

Wiz-not suprised your confused by the text.It would mean nothing to someone not familair to programming control panels. Not very helpful as mentioned.

yeah, obviously. I have been in the business of designing, installing, commissioning and maintaining fire alarm systems since 1978 and have programmed configurations into hundreds of panels but mainly only Haes, Android, Ampac, Kentec, PSS, Morley, & some Gents addressable panels, but I have never come across the term DOMAIN as part of the external or internal network of
modules or nodes. I thought maybe you had 'sussed' it and could explain.

mabe a very large site so the zones are grouped into domains or areas for qucker location.

1978 eh. you must be getting on a bit then?

[Wiz]

Wiz-not suprised your confused by the text.It would mean nothing to someone not familair to programming control panels. Not very helpful as mentioned.

yeah, obviously. I have been in the business of designing, installing, commissioning and maintaining fire alarm systems since 1978 and have programmed configurations into hundreds of panels but mainly only Haes, Android, Ampac, Kentec, PSS, Morley, & some Gents addressable panels, but I have never come across the term DOMAIN as part of the external or internal network of
modules or nodes. I thought maybe you had 'sussed' it and could explain.

mabe a very large site so the zones are grouped into domains or areas for qucker location.

1978 eh. you must be getting on a bit then?

Thanks for this. Makes sense. Never known Groups/Areas called Domains before.
Yes, now very thin on top, thicker in the middle and very fat feet!

[kurnal]

Thanks to all I have learned more from this thread than I thought I didnt know.

The domain in this case is the system. Its a networked system of 7  Gent vigilon panels. There are plans to build a mirror image of the building on a site opposite both controlled from the same supervisory pc and I guess this will be domain 2. In this case Node is the particular panel each having up to four loops and the OS is the outstation which may be a detector, call point or interface. As the RP on behalf of this client I now face the job of re-labelling all the device information to make it a little more understandable for the security guys. Just wondering what to do after lunch...