Author Topic: Exchange of knowledge and projects  (Read 12036 times)

Offline Mikhail Alekseev

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« on: September 06, 2006, 09:20:56 AM »
Greetings,
i am currently working as engineer-designer of fire alarm and PA&EVAC systems (specializing in high-rise and business-centers buildings) in Russia, Moscow. I would be very glad to have a look at such projects  installed in GB. I have read and heard about many of your BSIA, IEC and etc requirements touching the fire design area, but never have an option to have a look how they applied at real project. Here in Russia is the same market with same brands as you use, like Simplex, Bosch, Eff-Eff etc. and some native manufacturers. Its very interesting how you calculate and prove number of fire detectors in difficult areas (like skewed ceiling, high atriums), number of speakers, SPL, CIS, evacuation time and other such parameters in your projects. And which of them is a must in project and which ones optional.
What i can give in exchange ? Some fire alarm and PA&EVAC projects in CAD (notice that they are in russian language ;-))) And some knowledge of our fire alarm laws and codes...

P.S.
Sorry for my bad English.
Mikhail

Offline Mikhail Alekseev

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« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2006, 10:57:28 AM »
Crap...  near week and no replys...  Will try on my own...

Chris Houston

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« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2006, 12:34:17 PM »
Alexidis,

Fire detection and alarm systems in the UK tend to be designed to the British Standard 5839 Part 1, 2002.  If voice alarms are used, another Part of BS 5839 covers this.

The guidance relating fire fire safety in buildings produced by the government is contained in a document called "Approved Document B" this is a series of recommendations about all aspects of fire safety.  Other pieces of specific legislation cover things too.  There are stricter rules for high rise buildings.  The guidance in Approved Document B is optional, the designer can do things differently if he can satisfy the goverment inspectors that they have controlled the risk acceptably.  When they do this they will often include detection to all parts.

Legislation also requires emplyers to undertake a fire safety risk assessment and once they have done this they may require fire detection.

Insurers may also expect larger buildings to be fully protected.

Details on detector spacing etc are all contained within BS 5839 Part 1 2002.  Generally we have one point smoke detector for every 10 square meters.

I can't speak about any specific profects, there is a journal called "Fire Prevention" that often contains articles about such matters.  Perhaps if you wrote to the IFE they would supply a copy.  http://www.ife.org.uk/

Offline Mikhail Alekseev

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« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2006, 08:24:50 AM »
Thanx for advice Chris,

Just a few more questions, is there any site with documents you refer to (like BSIA 5839, Document B etc) available to read or download ? Or they extended on commercial purpose ?

And you notice that generally you place one smoke detector for 10 sq. meters, how do you explain that ? Do you need 9-10 detectors to cover 10x10 m hall ???  May be you wrong in smthg ? For example our codes require that one detector must be not further than 9 m from another and not  further than 4.5 m froom the wall in rooms with ceiling height >=3.5 m... so average cover area near 85 sq. m...

Chris Houston

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« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2006, 09:29:40 AM »
Approved Document B

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/professionals/en/1115314110382.html

The BSIA is the British Security Industry Association, it is not really relevant to this.  BS is an abbreviation of British Standard a document of recommendations.  There are British Standards for all sorts of things, how to design and install a fire alarm system, how a bridge should be built, how a window should be designed.

British Standard 5839 is a document that you need to purchase, BSi publish and sell them, www.bsi-global.com

BS 5839 recommends that each smoke detector should be no further than 7.5m from the area that is to be protected, so that gives us a circle with a radius of 7.5m.  Circles are difficult to work with, so we draw a sqaure box inside the circle that is 10m x 10m.  So a room that is 10m square needs only 1 point smoke detector to be fully protected.

Offline Wiz

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« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2006, 10:04:39 AM »
Hi Alexidis, following on from the good advice from Chris, there are a whole raft of recommendations for automatic detector siting in BS5839 part 1 2002 but these are also many variables, such as detector types, ceiling heights, location of any risers/shafts etc. etc. this would make it very time consuming to try and explain all of them in a forum such as this. Therefore reference to the BS is essential. BS5839 part 1 2002 is quite expensive to buy. It is available in many major libraries in the U.K. as a form of reference, and possibly a British Trade organisation in Russia might have copies. There are also a number of internet sites in the U.K. that have written explanations of the requirements of BS5839 part 1 2002. I can't recommend any of these to you because virtually every one I have looked at has minor 'errors' in respect of my understanding of the BS. However, they might be worth a look for you to get an idea of this BS. I suggest you type in 'BS5839 part 1' or 'how to install fire alarms' into google Uk to see what you can find.

Chris Houston

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« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2006, 10:15:48 AM »
You may want to consider the following book:

Fire Detection and Alarm Systems: A guide to the BS Code BS 5839- 1: 2002

By Colin Todd

ISBN 0 86213 129 4

Published by CMP United Business Media

http://www.amazon.co.uk/-Design-Installation-Commissioning-Maintenance-Fire-Detection-Fire-Alarm-Systems-Guide-/dp/058047626X/sr=1-1/qid=1158052484/ref=sr_1_1/026-7826574-0144410?ie=UTF8&s=books

But it does cost £46 (USD $90).

Offline Mikhail Alekseev

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« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2006, 01:17:24 PM »
Thanx a lot guys...

Its very interesting to compare various country local codes...

Is there any possibility to have a look at some1's fire alarm or PA&EVAC project ? I know its kind of commercial classified information but why not ? At least im thousands miles away from you ;-)

If i can be helpful for you just ask ;-) For example i can translate and put here our country official statistics of fires, their reasons and casualties...

P.S.
A lil' offtopic...
Just wondering why your codes and laws doesnt distribute freely ? There is no such law in England that all standarts relating to safety of people must be free ? Here in Russia i can download and read any of our local fire code or standart freely... i have to pay only if i wish to have a hardcopy ;-)
Is that advanced democracy rule that you need to pay for all, even for your safety ;-) ? And if you cant then...

Offline Mike Buckley

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« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2006, 04:22:25 PM »
No the idea of the system is that the British Standards Institute is self funding so it is free from government influence, hence they raise money from selling the standards documents.

No it is not an advanced democracy rule that you need to pay for everything. It is an advanced capitalist rule that you need to pay for everything! Also working on "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" principal you will find that somewhere you are payng for these, be it via tax or whatever.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it.

Chris Houston

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« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2006, 04:35:30 PM »
Perhaps we could keep the debate to Fire Safety and away from politics please.

Chris
(with Forum Admin hat on)

Offline kurnal

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« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2006, 06:54:52 PM »
Bit harsh that Chris!
I would have put  Alexidis  and Mikes comments under the heading  "Facts of life" rather than politics.
We  have to recognise that this goes back to the Framework directives -  the EU approach to risk is now that he who creates the risk ( ie the employer)  is responsible for its  management and control and there is little intervention or assistance from the enforcement authorities until something goes wrong. But its not so long ago that in the UK we were also able to seek free advice from the authorities, who would tell us what we needed to do to comply and even issue a free fire certificate when we had done it! But we had to pay for the guides that told us how to manage and maintain the standard.   Of course things  changed in the 1980s when charging for certificates  was introduced. It seems that the current approach in Eastern Europe may be something like the system we used to enjoy.

But now our guides are available free things have taken a further twist!

Offline Mikhail Alekseev

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« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2006, 10:28:17 AM »
No offence or politics in my words guys, just a lil bit caustik remarks ;-)

Anyway thanx for links and guides, this will help a lot to understand what i can fetch and apply here from your codes and standars...Compared to our your laws more detailed and stricted...and thats the way we should follow...

Is there any codes in England deciding how often fire safety inspector should invesigate buildings in his area and write fire orders ?
And is there any judicial precedents that not only employer responsible for fire risk in case of fire but fire inspector too ?
Also i wondering why your lethal casualties in case of fires so low ?  May be some1 try to expalin ? We have 15 times more deaths compared to your statistics (in meanings deaths on fire/population)...Is there any local rule or code that evacuation must start immediatly in case of fire, without tying to use the primary extiguishing devices ?

Chris Houston

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« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2006, 11:47:18 AM »
The responsibility for assessing and controling a fire risk is the employers (some employers still think it is the responsibility of the fire service, but that is wrong.)

The risk must be assessed on a regular basis, there is no specific time limit between assessments, but it is generally accepted that 12 months is the norm, or when ever there is any change in risk.

The fire service will inspect high risk places when they want to.

Perhaps the reasons that deaths are so low is a combination of factors, having suitable means of escape is a legal requirement and one that is taken very seriously by the fire service.  Employees unions would accept nothing less, neither would insurers or employers or the fire service.  If suitable means of escape are not provided, the fire service will not hesitate to stop work from the location, our building codes would not enable premises to be built without suitable means of escape.  We do have a very high arson rate in some buildings, mostly schools, but deaths are unheard of.

It is generally accepted that an evacuation will follow a fire alarm activation.  Should employees use fire extinguishers?  It depends on the risk, there is a legal requirement to train sufficient numbers of employees in their use.  This is an oft debated subject.  Some argue that we should always undertake an immediate evacuation.  I would argue this point and say that sometimes it is better to put out the fire and eliminate the risk.  The reality is that most fires are put out by the public anyway.

It must also be noted that if someone dies in a fire, an employer can expect an investigation from our government's Health and Safety Executive (www.hse.gov.uk), possible prosecution (a fine or even jail), bad publicity, angry employees and a large compensation claim.

Offline Mikhail Alekseev

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« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2006, 12:11:53 PM »
Fire inspectors here dont have permission to stop work in dangerous by meanings of fire or not corresponded to fire safety standarts buildings, even if they decide go to judge to begin long process of examination the ending of examination in resolution to stop work its very unique here and  judge make such decision very rare...
I think thats in case of imperfection of our laws and high corruption rate...

Is that so ease in England that inspector can stop work in really unsafe building ? Does this procedure require to address to judge or he can make that decision alone ?

Chris Houston

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« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2006, 12:19:37 PM »
There are people on the forum that know more about this than me.  There are two types of enforcement that they can take:

One is an "improvement" notice, this is when they see something that is illegal, often the employer will have a time scale to fix the problem, maybe 30 days and work can continue.  This is the more commonly used action.

The other is a "prohibition" notice, this is when there is believed to be an immidiate danger to employees.  This can force the employer to stop doing something immediatly, to stop using a particular machine, or process or stop using an area of even a whole building.  This is very rare.

It is rare because employers here have been subject to health and safety legislation for decades.  Also they have been sued by injured employees for decades.  It is widely accepted that employees won't work somewhere if the employer is not treating them well.  The easy at which employees can move to other employers in the UK is probably one of the many cultural, historical and economical factors that result in our relativly low fire death rate.