Fire Commissioning Engineer thinking of going Self Employed

[emc2jkd1]

Hi,

This may sound like a simple question but, can I provide a valid commissioning certificate under my own steam and not under the umbrella of the companies I've previously worked for?
If not what would I need to do, to get to that stage.

I've been a through all 6 of the BFPSA courses for systems to BS5839.

I've worked in Design and Estimating and Sales as well as 15 years experience in Fire Commissioning / Install / Maintenance / Service on the engineering side.

I'm thinking of going self employed.

[Graeme]

Yes
just make up your own templates and personalise them. You have the experience and qualifications.

[emc2jkd1]

Thanks for the quick response.

[Wiz]

Whilst agreeing that your qualifications and experience seem more than sufficient, please remember that you need to ensure your 'self-employed' business insurance covers you for all of the work you do. This was obviously paid for by the companies you previously worked for and now you will need your own.

[David Rooney]

I would also add that for credibility you should consider getting third party accreditation, as recommended in the BS.

Your qualifications at the moment don't distinguish you from my local plumber who according to his sign written van is also competent to maintain your fire alarm system........hmmmm!

[Wiz]

I would also add that for credibility you should consider getting third party accreditation, as recommended in the BS.

Your qualifications at the moment don't distinguish you from my local plumber who according to his sign written van is also competent to maintain your fire alarm system........hmmmm!

Seems sensible. But what if the the 'third party accreditors' don't/can't do their job properly? So do the 'third party accreditors' also get accredited by a 'third party' and so on ad infinitum? In the end we could all be double-checked for ability and competence to such a degree that the costs in doing so will make the cost of doing any work prohibitive. Are we talking about just creating 'jobs for the boys' and, if so, where does it all end? Could we be making the costs to carry out work in this industry so great, that no start-up businesses could afford to work in it, to the benefit of the established businesses and to the disadvantage to the customer in increased costs?

Is there not a case for saying that fire alarm works are covered by a clear and sensible (!) set of recommendations and a legal system for punishing wrongdoers, that if properly enforced, would mean that eventually no one would dare not to design,install, commission, service to these recommendations because the punishment is so great?

[Graeme]

Wiz- that is a load of nonsense.

Im sure that the 3rd party persons in question are more than competant.

[Allen Higginson]

Even the BSI are checked.

[Chris Houston]

The third party accreditors are assesed by UKAS.

We're not talking about widgets here, we are talking about systems that are essential to protect multiple lifes.  Employers have the right (and arguably an obligation) to know that the people they pay money to keep these systems working as able to do so competantly.

[emc2jkd1]

My qualifications are all 6 BFPSA courses.

1. Fire Detection Design
2. Fire Alarm Maintenance
3. Installation and Testing
4. Advanced Commissioning
5. Advanced Detection & Design
6. Advanced Alarm Design

And the other stuff previously mentioned.

I've now been asked to commission a system for an electrical company.

Why would I need to get further 3rd party if I am the one being asked to commission the system and provide a valid certificate to BS5839?

Do my qualifications and experience allow me to provide the said certificate? I suppose it’s a Yes or No answer really.

[Wiz]

Wiz- that is a load of nonsense.

Im sure that the 3rd party persons in question are more than competant.

Oh, if you are sure, then that's all right. I thought maybe we could get in another layer or two of 'double-checkers' to create a few more jobs for the boys. I apologise for my nonsense.

[Wiz]

My qualifications are all 6 BFPSA courses.

1. Fire Detection Design
2. Fire Alarm Maintenance
3. Installation and Testing
4. Advanced Commissioning
5. Advanced Detection & Design
6. Advanced Alarm Design

And the other stuff previously mentioned.

I've now been asked to commission a system for an electrical company.

Why would I need to get further 3rd party if I am the one being asked to commission the system and provide a valid certificate to BS5839?

Do my qualifications and experience allow me to provide the said certificate? I suppose it’s a Yes or No answer really.

emc, my opinion is categorically yes. I think your qualifications and experience make you a competent person and this all you need to be. Obviously, you still have to do the commissioning properly otherwise you would prove incompetent!

[Wiz]

The third party accreditors are assesed by UKAS.

We're not talking about widgets here, we are talking about systems that are essential to protect multiple lifes.  Employers have the right (and arguably an obligation) to know that the people they pay money to keep these systems working as able to do so competantly.

Chris, I'm not argiung about the importance of doing things right. I'm concerned about the increased costs, lack of competitiveness, risk of corruption, and the power to make or break a business, by this sort third-party assessment process. I think you could argue  that you would possibly need someone to assess the assessors to avoid these potential problems, and so on.

I feel the process could be so simple; The risk is assessed and system Category is detemined. The Employer requires that the system is designed, installed, commissioned and maintained to that category. Any party failing to meet the Employers requirements leaves himself open to punishment. Simple, straightforward and cost-effective!


.

[Wiz]

The third party accreditors are assesed by UKAS.

Chris, I've just been looking at the UKAS website, to see if they were a 'worthwhile' layer in the 'double-checking the double-checkers' system, and it appears that they admit that any organisations that accredit others, do not have to be accredited by UKAS! This could mean that a fire alarm commissioner could get third-party accreditation from an organisation, who are not accredited themselves, and therefore could provide the third-party accreditation just for paying enough money to them or for supporting the same football team as them! I know that this is unlikely, and is taking my argument to a probably ridiculous degree, but I'm hope you can see what I am getting at and understand my fears.

[Chris Houston]

All this proves is that there are options.

If what you say is true an employer can:

Not have his fire alarm system serviced
Have his fire alarm serviced by a contractor, asking him to do so to BS 5839
Have his fire alarm servced by a third party approved contractor to BS 5839
Have his fire alarm serviced by third party approved (UKAS accredited organisation) to BS 5839

The choice is his.

So, we have the benefit of the approval system, and the flexibility of not being approved if you so wish.  What more do you want?