Retained fire doors on timers

[David Rooney]

We have been asked to alter an automatically released fire door to make it easier for a wheel chair user to manually release and close the door at the end of the day when he leaves his office.

The thought then occurred that when he is in the office, if the alarm goes off and the door shuts instantly, he would have great difficulty manouvering his wheel chair in order to open the door to get out !

Is there any reason anyone can think as to why we should not suggest a "30 second" delay before allowing the door to close?

Also, should this principle not be applied to "care homes" or similar where the inhabitants are primarily disabled ??

[Wiz]

Would 30 seconds be enough? What if couldn't manouevre his wheelchair quick enough on one occasion? Would 45 seconds be better? Or a couple of minutes if he was not feeling too good on one particular day?
Is it a good idea that his door automatically closes whenever any fire alarm condition exsists?
Why not connect the door hold mechanism to only release when smoke is detected in the areas that make the closure of his door essential to prevent the spread of smoke. If the fire starts in his office, he is likely to have left it anyway before the smoke is automatically detected and the door needs to close. If the smoke is in the corridor, if it is sufficient to operate an automatic detector, then he probalby shouldn't leave the relative safety of the office at that point, and it would be good that the door then automatically closed by operation of an adjacent automatic detector.

[Martin Burford]

David

i believe there is a door closer called an LCN.. manufactured  in wiltshire...which allows a set for the door closer to operate...should be ok...won't need evpensive detection links then.
Conqueror

[Martin Burford]

David

That should be a set time!
conqueror

[Wiz]

David

That should be a set time!
conqueror

Conqueror,
What should the time be set at? What if it proves not to be enough on one occasion and traps the wheelchair user in the room?

[Martin Burford]

Wiz

From memory I think the max setting is around 90 secs. Before fitting such devices it is necessary to carryout trials and consult all the literature accompanying such a device... Failing that Dorgard may be of use. I would be interested to know what happens.
Conqueror

[saddlers]

It would appear that all of the responses have been based on the assumption that wheelchair users cannot open a door with a closer fitted. There are very few wheelchair users who would have problems opening such doors.

I would suggest approaching the individual, and determining the issue and the extent of their disability. The original issue appears to be the releasing of the magnetic device (which I assume is because the release is at an inaccessible height). If the user has no problems opening doors fitted with self closers there may be no problem to overcome!!

[David Rooney]

Thanks Conqueror I will look into that....

Saddlers, I'm sure the guy can open a door under normal circumstances, the problem is that this is a small office in a college where they are already cramped for space.

This door (along with five others) along a corridor was specifically requested to be fitted with door closers about five years ago by the then fire officer. Surely then we cannot now just leave the door open because we have a disabled person using it?

(yes there are arguments that the room may not be suitable for a wheelchair user, but this is the office and if he wants the job he's got to use it,)

So my "outsider lookin in" view is that if the door shuts he may have difficulty facing directly onto the door, to turn and grip the handle, and then manoeuver backwards with one hand.

Wizz, reason I put "30 seconds" (in quotes) was that I hoped people would have realised that this was not a fixed time period and was meant to be a "typical" time that may be variable and adjusted to suit the situation. And because I couldn't be bothered to list every possible variation to do with a timer.

Big assumption i know.

However I do take your comments on board regards the smoke detection, except that this will mean a lot of hastle having to rewire detection circuits to incorporate relay bases etc.

[Pip]

making a few assumptions but consider this:
if it is a 'dead end' route,and that is why the occupier was advised to fit self closers on the doors to make it a 'protected' route, new guidance now allows for the s/c to be removed (but not in sleeping accommodation) providing the route and rooms off it are covered by AFD.Without knowing the exact layout, can't be sure that this will be apprpriate, but may be worth investigating

[David Rooney]

making a few assumptions but consider this:
if it is a 'dead end' route,and that is why the occupier was advised to fit self closers on the doors to make it a 'protected' route, new guidance now allows for the s/c to be removed (but not in sleeping accommodation) providing the route and rooms off it are covered by AFD.Without knowing the exact layout, can't be sure that this will be apprpriate, but may be worth investigating

That's interesting.....

It is indeed a dead end route, and this particular office is at the dead end !

All rooms have AFD (apart from a store cupboard) as does the corridor.

Which piece of guidance are we talking about ??

[saddlers]

I also have experience of accepting AFD in dead end situations rather than providing protection, in my humble opinion this is the better solution anyway. I would rather be aware of a problem at an early stage, than having to escape past a fully developed fire once finally becoming aware of the issue.

[greg]

Just entered this topic, I note that DR said 'this is the office and if he wants the job he's got to use it' I think the DDA may have something to say if this is the attitude of the employers. I am no expert on that piece of legislation however I think it says something about reasonable adaptations, surely the issue is about the cramped office since this seems to be causing the difficulty in opening the door. I would expect that uncluttering an office is probably less expensive and onerus than installing delayed activation devices etc, in addition it would lead to better working conditions and maintain the safety of other users of the buildings.

[David Rooney]

Greg, unfortunately in a small office where space is limited there isn't always a lot of choice. One able bodied person has been shipped out of this office already to make way for the wheel chair user, that is, a three man office has gone down to a two man office. And another office has now become even more crowded.

These offices are part of a college admin centre, as you may imagine it is typically overworked, and too small. Every available space is used in one way or another, so personally speaking, I think a lot of "reasonable" adaptations have been made to accomodate this guy, short of building him his own office next door to his house so he doesn't need an extra wide parking space meaning another member of staff can no longer park in the car park.

[Ken Taylor]

Am I right in thinking that this is a 'cramped' ofice with an inward-opening door?

If so, and the door was reversed to open outward (in the direction of escape), would the wheelchair user be able to push open the door - in addition to being, perhaps, less 'cramped'?

[jokar]

David, the guidance is contained in the Guidance Docyment 1, the new one for offices and shops.  It states that in dead end conditiond, you can have fire resistance or as an alternative AFD.