Author Topic: GREEN BOXES -again  (Read 11641 times)

Offline Redone

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GREEN BOXES -again
« on: September 26, 2006, 10:04:31 AM »
During a weekly fire alarm test at one of our care homes (EMI)the recently installed (two weeks) key pad failed to release the door.

Solinoid failure...

My worry is that if a fire occurred, people trapped, Fire alarm BGCP located otherside of door in lobby, therefore waiting for detection to pick up smoke to alert occupants.

Would the fitting of a green box unit have enabled the door to be opened with or without the fault?

Is the Green box a requirement with the key pad - I'd have thought so?

Is the a way of detecting the fault without the weekly test?

Yours concerned

Mitch

messy

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GREEN BOXES -again
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2006, 11:51:43 AM »
Is is practical to use a green box within an EMI resi home? (or is it key operated?)

Surely the residents would be wandering all over the locality within minutes of the box going on line?

Offline Pip

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GREEN BOXES -again
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2006, 12:16:41 PM »
My experience in L.A. homes that this does not happen that often-but as a safegaurd the doors are fitted with an alarm.On another note though-we do allow the omission of 'push bar to open signs' as the EMI residents tend to regard it as an instruction.

Offline Wiz

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GREEN BOXES -again
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2006, 02:29:32 PM »
Quote from: Redone
During a weekly fire alarm test at one of our care homes (EMI)the recently installed (two weeks) key pad failed to release the door.

Solinoid failure...

My worry is that if a fire occurred, people trapped, Fire alarm BGCP located otherside of door in lobby, therefore waiting for detection to pick up smoke to alert occupants.

Would the fitting of a green box unit have enabled the door to be opened with or without the fault?

Is the Green box a requirement with the key pad - I'd have thought so?

Is the a way of detecting the fault without the weekly test?

Yours concerned

Mitch
What sort of failure of the 'solenoid'?

If you mean there was an electrical failure of the solenoid within an electric latch then it should have failed-safe released.

If the rim failed to give way and release, it is almost certainly due to pressure on it by poor fitting or door warping. In these circumstances I would suggest a CDV Firelock available from http://www.ekmpowershop2.com/ekmps/shops/sasssekm/index.asp?function=DISPLAYPRODUCT&productid=576 This can handle up to 100Kg side pressure and still release. Expensive but effective.

Another option is to use a face-to-face electromagnetic lock (maglock). Because they rely purely on magnetism to hold the door locked, they don't suffer the same mechanical problems as electromagnetic latches. Maglocks are normally fitted only at the top of the door (although there are options) and it is sometimes possible to spring them apart by using considerable force at the bottom of the door. However I don't see this as a problem in your installation since, I understand, the system is only to prevent elderly/confused persons from using the door.

No matter what sort of locking device you have on the door, If you only have a keypad to be able to release the latch on the door, I would have thought it imperitive to also have a green emergency door release unit. Most FO insist on it. I have seen  just a regular fire mcp adjacent to the door, as a form of emergency door release, because it will operate the fire aalrm which will then release the door. But most FO will not accept anything but a green emergency exit unit in any circumstances (I also understand a forthcoming BS will recommend it)

Finally, to deter misuse, an alarmed (piercing battery operated shriek) lift up poly cover is also available from STI for green emergency door release units.

Graeme

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GREEN BOXES -again
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2006, 05:25:28 PM »
Redone

If the lock is a solenoid type then does it then have a handle on the inside?
Or are we talking about a bolt type lock?

If it has a handle then i can't see whay it would need connected a bgu.

If the solenoid had failed then the bgu would not have opened it.


are you saying the lock was faulty or the interface to the fire alarm?

and you can test the lock for correct operation through the keypad you mentioned but you will need to do a fire test to see if it drops out in fire condition

Offline Redone

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GREEN BOXES -again
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2006, 07:33:06 PM »
Cheers for all the first class replies gent's.

Further info...

Residents disappearing not a problem here, the doors concerned are internal only.

Handles are fitted, enter code turn handle - I couldn't open the door, however other doors opened fine.

WFRS are reccommending the addition of Green boxes.

My fear is they should fail to open, is this a dodgy installation?

Mitch

Graeme

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GREEN BOXES -again
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2006, 08:45:12 PM »
so is the lock in question one of those mechanical types with keypad and handle combined?
They don't require power so won't drop out in the event of a powercut or fire.

can you describe exactly what you have

i.e is the electric strike in the door frame etc.

Offline Wiz

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GREEN BOXES -again
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2006, 09:03:21 PM »
Quote from: Graeme Millar
so is the lock in question one of those mechanical types with keypad and handle combined?
They don't require power so won't drop out in the event of a powercut or fire.

i.e is the electric strike in the door frame etc.
Graeme, could it really be, as you are beginning to suspect, that this is just a mechanical digital lock, with no electric strike in the frame?  It seems to be leading to such, especially as Redone states 'that all other doors open fine. (I'm presuming on a fire conition). I am really bewilderd why anyone would expect such an arrangement to release in a fire condition.

Offline Redone

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GREEN BOXES -again
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2006, 10:19:59 AM »
The internal door locks in question do have the keypad and handle combined, however the occupant has had them fitted so as to fail to open if the fire alarm operates - looks like the strike plate is fitted into the door frame, so it should release - unless the solinoid fails?

All other doors fitted with this device 'released' fine during the test of fire alarm.


The final exit doors have key pad and green box.

Is this a faulty set up?  Still not happy as it could fail again...

Mitch

Offline Wiz

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GREEN BOXES -again
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2006, 11:08:33 AM »
Quote from: Redone
The internal door locks in question do have the keypad and handle combined, however the occupant has had them fitted so as to fail to open if the fire alarm operates - looks like the strike plate is fitted into the door frame, so it should release - unless the solinoid fails?

All other doors fitted with this device 'released' fine during the test of fire alarm.


The final exit doors have key pad and green box.

Is this a faulty set up?  Still not happy as it could fail again...

Mitch
Mitch,

Does the kepad/handle look like the digital mechanical keypad shown on this page?:

http://www.cdvuk.com/_htmlpages/posts1.htm

Does the electric strike/release look something like this?:

http://www.cdvuk.com/Images/Large%20JPG%201024/GAER.jpg

Any locking device on a door on a 'fire escape route' should be electrically fail-safe (i.e it needs a voltage supplied to it to keep it in the locked condition- any failure of the electrical supply to power the solenid will release the latch). If the solenoid 'burnt out' it should have failed safe open. If the locking device failed to release because it was badly fitted or the door was warped, the following product is far less prone to these problems:

http://www.cdvuk.com/_htmlpages/firelockpage.htm

A cheaper option is to replace the strike locking with a different version of locking, such as a mag-lock:

http://www.cdvuk.com/_htmlpages/internalsurfacemagnets.htm

As well as linking into the fire alarm system to release the doors on a fire condition, it is recommended to fit a green emergency door release unit as a normally-closed switch in the electrical feed to the locking device. This should ensure that if all else fails the door can be electrically released by the green emergency door release unit.

Offline Redone

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GREEN BOXES -again
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2006, 01:48:25 PM »
Cheers Wiz,

Strike plate looks the same, coded lock is CL-201-SC.  The door set  is in good order.

I've tried talking to the installers, not got past the switchboard - no -one available.  Just want them to report on the ACTUAL fault.


Thanks for all your help

Offline Wiz

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GREEN BOXES -again
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2006, 02:59:35 PM »
Quote from: Redone
Cheers Wiz,

Strike plate looks the same, coded lock is CL-201-SC.  The door set  is in good order.

I've tried talking to the installers, not got past the switchboard - no -one available.  Just want them to report on the ACTUAL fault.


Thanks for all your help
From what you are saying I really think there is pressure on the strike so it won't release but there could be other, more serious problems.

If I was you I would:

1) Get them to confirm that the strike is a fail-safe version - Ask them to check, with the door open, that if they totally disconnect the power supply that feeds the door strike circuit, that the strike releases using finger pressure. Then power the power supply back up again and get them to check, with finger pressure, that the strike is now locked. If all this is o.k., go to step 2. If the strike never releases the solenoid is jammed (faulty - needs replacing) or more worryingly it is a fail-locked instead of fail-safe strike. (go to step 3)

2) Close the door and disconnect the power once again. Check that the door releases. If it doesn't try pushing the door against the closed position a bit, to take the opening pressure off the strike, and see if it releases then. If it does, it means the strike is poorly fitted or the door is warped (adjust position of strike to suit or replace with CDV firelock or face-to-face maglock (the maglock won't work with the existing mechanical keypad and an electrical keypad will need to be added))

3) (follow on from step 1 and with power supply connected) Open door and operate fire alarm, if strike now releases on fire alarm with finger pressure, it is a fail-locked version and urgently needs replacing with a fail-safe version and also possibly re-wiring of fire alarm interface circuit to suit. If this is the case, also check all other similar doors in building.

4) Once the system is operating correctly and as fail-safe. If keypad side of door is on an escape route (I presume that the other side has a handle that you can open the door without using a keypad) install green emergency door release unit as a normally-closed switch in the electrical feed to the electrical strike.

5) If unauthorised operation of the green emergency door release unit is a problem, consider installing an alarmed poly lift up cover over the green emergency door release unit

Graeme

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GREEN BOXES -again
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2006, 05:15:07 PM »
Quote from: Redone
Cheers Wiz,

Strike plate looks the same, coded lock is CL-201-SC.  The door set  is in good order.

I've tried talking to the installers, not got past the switchboard - no -one available.  Just want them to report on the ACTUAL fault.


Thanks for all your help
As Wiz mentioned with any electrical lock if pressure is apllied before it's activated the pin cannot drop out.

Offline Redone

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GREEN BOXES -again
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2006, 08:03:03 PM »
Thanks for that Wiz, and everyone else, will follow up.

Mitch