Does a 18th century public building, have to have evacuation chairs if

[Donna]

Do old public buildings (COUNCIL OWNED) with NO fire escapes other than a flight of stairs (7 or 8 internal carpeted risers, and 4 external masonery ones to the street) have to have any evacuation chairs/equiptment etc ? also do the 2 staff they employ when there the building is used for a wedding venue holding 200 persons, how many need to be trained in emergency procedures, the building has internal stairs to the floor above, with no internal disabled access. This building is multi use, it is also the Magistrates court, and is the venue for craft fairs etc are also held on a weekly basis.
The only disabled access into and out of the building, is via a locked external door, and then has a wheelchair stannah lift, which I obviously know would not count as a fire exit. I have contacted the HSE and the fire safety officer, but so far in the last 6 weeks I have not been given the answers or what is the correct procedures for staff to adhere to.

[John Webb]

Dear Donna,
I assume this is the Guildhall you posted about elsewhere on the site. In addition to my reply there, I can add that Evacuation chairs (EVACs) are falling out of favour for the following reasons:
(a) staff may not be willing to volunteer to use them for fear of back injury etc.;
(b) once the person is carried out by EVAC, they do not have access to their own wheelchair which creates difficulties for that person in getting home or whatever.

Therefore the trend today is to remove wheelchair users complete with their wheelchairs. This may be done directly with suitable exits, or in a two-stage process where they are first moved to a 'place of safety' - a refuge - where they are protected by being within a fire-resistant enclosure. There is then less urgency to get them to a final exit, which forms the second stage. The use of refuges is documented in Building Regulations Approved Document B  "Fire Safety" on page 10 (of the 2000 edition), where it cross-references to Part M on disabled access.
Hope this is of help to you.

[kurnal]

Donna
The responsible person for the premises has to make adequate provision for the safe evacuation of all persons who may legally be using the premises and where this includes disabled persons it is their duty to make adequate provision for them- it is not sufficient to provide refuges in the top of a staircase and await assistance from the fire brigade.
The guides to the Fire Safety Order are available for free download on the DCLG website- there a link in the top section of this forum. I suggest you download those relating to assembly buildings to start with- the information is the same in most of the others.

I have done a great deal of work with access groups and in all types of buildings and  have produced systems and procedures to meet their specific requirements. There is too much for a forum- if you email me and let me have your address I would gladly let you have copies of some documents that may help.

I dont think you are likely to get any direct premises specific help from the HSE. The Fire Service may get involved if you make a direct complaint, but there will be little feedback to you on specific arrangements at specific premises. You will just get a letter of acknowledgement and an assurance that your concerns will be investigated.  

The onus is on the responsible person for the premises to comply and come up with safe procedures. The Fire Servce are not likely to get involved unless they receive a complaint or something actually goes wrong..

[Donna]

Thanks John and Kurnal,
Yes John it is about the same Salisbury Guildhall, and Kurnal, whilst investigating, I phoned the wedding dept that uses the building, they said they can hold 200 for buffets and 150 seated, they have 2 yes 2! staff when there is a wedding (apart from caterers hired by wedding party) and neither staff know anything about emergency procedures! the HSE have said that they have "read documentary evidence from the periodic hazard reports, (compiled by guildhall staff, and not HSE) and they are satisfied there is no problem" this is after I brought to their attention, partially blocked corridors, lighting to dim to see, locked doors etc,
I am going around in circles, even the fire safety officer I cant get hold of for the last 6 weeks for a reply! surely should the council use this venue considering these facts, and who higher than HSE and the fire officer can I get to take notice, I just dont think its right!
I have asked the HSE for the records of who is the responsible person out of the 2 staff on duty at any given time, and I can only assume , because they have not answered this particular question, that there isnt one!  is this allowed!
Ps. my powerchair is 100kg, (but had to use my push one on the occaision that I went to the guildhall,) no-one can lift those type of chairs, without using the welded anchorage points!

[John Webb]

With the new regulations which started on October the 1st, I would write now to the Chief Fire Officer for Wiltshire and ask him to take up your concerns. In particular if you look at the DCLG guide  (go to www.firesafetyguides.communities.gov.uk ) for small and medium places of public assembly you may be able to state specific items which appear to be out of line with the guide's requirements. You could copy this letter to the Chief Executive for Salisbury Council and/or the current Mayor 'for their information' which is a polite way of saying you are making a fuss about this matter.

[Donna]

Cheers I will do that, and I will let you know when I hear back, but I already Know the local MP is NOT interested, as when the article appeared in the paper, a memer of the public wrote to me, and told me that they too, had complained to local MP and the Council "a year or so ago" and nothing was done about that either! I have also wrote to the MP myself, and have not had a positive reply.

[AnthonyB]

What do you expect - it's a council building! The most regular offenders for out dated, poorly managed premises are councils and council affiliated not for profit bodies I I have been in many premises that are of this ilk. Newer stuff is so-so, but existing premises abysmal & FRS don't like to get involved either (esp where their trading arms are involved in the 'maintenance' of such buildings systems!)

[Donna]

I am actually feeling that this BIG PROBLEM I have highlighted, is a big cover up!, but thanks for the great info and support offered to me by some of the members listed above, I am really going to keep on at them, it was only a couple of weeks ago that the same council took a smaller business to court about an advertising "A board" from outside a shop! but how can they be so hypocritical?