Responsible Persons

[Davo]

As Fire person for a large police force, I am doing a presentation including identifying RPs. So far I have got
Chief Constable, Divisional Commanders, Business Managers, local H & S officers, Estates professionals, contractors god bless 'em, and shift supervisors in the smaller nicks as they will be senior person. Plus of course good old me and my boss.
It all boils down as to who is in control of what, I suppose.

Has anybody out there done some work identifying RPs in large organisations?

[jayjay]

You are asking a question that is seeming to cause some confusion even with fire authorities, If you are looking for an individual you may not be sucessfull to quote from the Regulations.

Meaning of "responsible person"
3. In this Order "responsible person" means—
(a) in relation to a workplace, the employer, if the workplace is to any extent
under his control;
(b) in relation to any premises not falling within paragraph (a)—
(i) the person who has control of the premises (as occupier or
otherwise) in connection with the carrying on by him of a trade,
business or other undertaking (for profit or not); or
(ii) the owner, where the person in control of the premises does not
have control in connection with the carrying on by that person of a
trade, business or other undertaking.

So in an large organisation like the Police or a local councils the responsible person may not be an individual but the "employer" may be the Police Authority or Local Authority and in a private company a Corporate Body.
Where charges are laid in the event of a prosecutions etc it may not be possible to identify an individual person. If you search on the HSE website it gives advice on where prosecutions or leagl notices  may be served.

Any other opinions?

[jokar]

It is all very simple really, for the employer he who pays pays.  Therefore, the employer, the RP is whichever Police Force you belong to.  Article 5 (3) allows nominations for individuals but in law there is only 1 RP.  For those in control, a Managing Agent who leases on behalf of an owner, such as flats in an HMO is the RP and if it is the owner then records will tell you that.

FRS have to ensure that they address Notices to the correct body and if they do not the Notice is invalid.  An example is Marks and Spencers PLC is an employer and therefore they as a Company are the RP.  Notices will be sent to the Company Secretary on their behalf.

[AFD]

The RRfsO is going to be a suprise to a lot of multi occupied premises and particularly any large organisation where previously the staff always thought ( or hid behind ) that the legal responsibility was always 'only' with the 'Chief Exec. or similar', under the RRfsO anyone with any form of control, contract or role will be legally responsible under the act, and therefore can have legal action taken upon them.  Department managers, section heads, persons testing and maintaining fire sysyems ( active and passive) all have legal duty under the act.  Remember a risk assessment carried out by a fire safety advisor or consultant is done for the person in control of that premises ( not always the chief exec. although they also 'as well' have legal resonsibility) and they must take control of it, therefore they are legally responsible. So it will be the case that for larger organisations etc. there will be multiple enforcements/prosecutions that will be served upon anyone with a form of control or responsibility.
From The order ;
"" Offences
32.—(1) It is an offence for any responsible person or any other person mentioned in article 5(3)
to—
(a) fail to comply with any requirement or prohibition imposed by articles 8 to 22 and 38
(fire safety duties) where that failure places one or more relevant persons at risk of death
or serious injury in case of fire;  Etc. Etc.

Duties under this Order
5(3) Any duty imposed by articles 8 to 22 or by regulations made under article 24 on the
responsible person in respect of premises shall also be imposed on every person, other than the
responsible person referred to in paragraphs (1) and (2), who has, to any extent, control of those premises so far as the requirements relate to matters within his control.
(4) Where a person has, by virtue of any contract or tenancy, an obligation of any extent in
relation to—
(a) the maintenance or repair of any premises, including anything in or on premises; or
(b) the safety of any premises,that person is to be treated, for the purposes of paragraph (3), as being a person who has control of the premises to the extent that his obligation so extends.
23.—(1) Every employee must, while at work—
(a) take reasonable care for the safety of himself and of other relevant persons who may be
affected by his acts or omissions at work;Etc.Etc.""

The only person without any real legal responsibility 'under this order' are visitors to a premise.
Interesting times ahead !

[Donna]

AFD, from the above info, could I assume that, the "risk assessment" that persons, managers etc, that use the "multi use building" are following are what a fire safety adviser or consultant has written for them to follow,  and not one that they have compiled themselves?
Its just that I am pursuing a matter, (mentioned on another topic on this forum), and am finding it a bit frustrating that the HSE were not helpful, and the fire safety officer is working far too slow. Could I make a  hypothetical guess, that if the FSO hasnt taken into account and written in the assessment, things like..disabled evacuation, the locking of a disabled access door ( so disabled person could be trapped in a locked corridor) and the lack of thought to allow a corridor to be partially blocked,  because it is used only by staff and the disabled, for the managers to follow, that they wouldn't be very forthcoming in investigating a complaint, which technically could be their fault from the onset? do you understand what I am saying? to investigate really thoroughly, they could be shooting themselves in the foot!

[Mike Buckley]

Donna, it depends who you mean by the Fire Safety Officer. If you are talking about a Fire Safety Officer who is employed by the Fire Authority, that person should not be responsible for doing the fire risk assessment. The Fire Authority is responsible for policing the system.

If you are talking about a fire safety officer employed by the people who run the building and not the Fire Authority then that person may or may not be the person who did the fire risk assessment but they may be the person who is responsible for ensuring the fire precautions are maintained in the building.

[Donna]

Thanks for that, I was refering to the FSO from the local fire brigade, it seems that there is no-one employed at the building is adhering to any H&S
at all, if you want to read my other post, its the one that asks about 18 century building, and evacuation chairs, (I have received good advice on these matters) but I just thought that, there was something staring me in the face that I hadn't thought of, regarding your post, cheers.