Author Topic: powder fire extinguishers  (Read 22925 times)

Offline JasonP

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powder fire extinguishers
« on: October 19, 2006, 11:13:01 AM »
what is the difference between abc powder and powder fire extinguishers?

Rgds
Jason

Offline AnthonyB

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powder fire extinguishers
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2006, 10:28:07 PM »
Everything you needed to know & more besides!

The original dry powder extinguishers appeared around the early 20th century & were simple tubes of bicarbonate of soda, chalk, etc that were dashed onto a fire by hand or a shaker.

These were not very effective and soon fell out of fashion, although they received attention during WW2 as possible devices for use on incendiary bombs, but the traditional media of water buckets & sand buckets were found as effective.

It was not until the end of the 1950's that the modern powder extinguishers first started to appear.
This time, the extinguishant, normally Sodium Bicarbonate plus water proofing agents (usually metal stearates) was contained in a cylinder and propelled by a CO2 charge onto a fire at a pressure of around 150 psi.

The design was similar to that of a cartridge water extinguisher, with some notable differences:-
- a gassing tube to fluidise compacted powder prior to discharge
- the need for a larger capacity CO2 cartridge masss for mass as powder is discharged in a stream of CO2 rather than be expelled by it.

Reseach in the US and by Nu-Swift in the UK lead to the development of the stored pressure extinguisher, with dry air, nitrogen and CO2 being used as pressurising gases in various makes, usually with a working pressure of 150-195 psi. Stored pressure has now overtaken catridge pressure as the main type of powder extinguisher

Early extinguishers had a fan shaped nozzle as a flat horizontal discharge was thought to be the most effective, but further research showed a conical discharge to be more effective and round nozzles soon became the norm.

Small models (1-7lb) were of total discharge, but larger models (7lb +) , other than National Coal Board approved models, had a shut off control to allow more effective use of the agent and reduce uneccesary powder clouds, which block vision.

The introduction of the modern powder extinguisher saw the birth of the "domestic/motoring" disposable aerosol extinguishers in the 60's, still used to this day

Design has changed little over the years, normally following general developments such as the advent of squeeze grip controlled discharge, although some manufacturers still produce strike knob type models.

It took many decades before the exact extinguishing nature of powder was known- original theories cited the force of discharge 'blowing out' the flames; or that the powder smothered by displacing oxygen; or that there was some cooling/smothering effect from the water & CO2 liberated by the contact of powder with flame; or that powder absorned all the heat.

The actual effect of powder requires knowledge of the fire tetrahedron as it does not cool, starve or smother to any appreciable extent, but in fact works on the chemical reaction that is fire, the powder particals 'mopping up' the free radical elements that are formed during and are important in propagating, the reaction of combustion.

Powders fall into three distinct groups:

BC Powders
ABC Powders
D Powders

BC Powders are the original type, based on Sodium Bicarbonate. They are alkaline in nature and are effective on Class B (flammable liquid/liquifiable solids) and Class C (flammable gas) fires. They are electrically non-conductive.
As they are alkaline they have some saponification effects and have a limited effect on Class F (cooking oils) fires, being installed in some kitchens for that purpose. Early cooker hood suppression systems used BC Powder before Wet Chemical extinguishants were developed, however BC Powder is not classified as a Class F agent and should not be installed for that purpose.
Very few extinguishers in general use contain BC Powder other than the aerosol type.

'High Performance' BC Powder. For the high risk petrochemical industry a BC Powder extinguisher with a more rapid knockdown than Sodium Bicarbonate was required and two specific types were invented:

- Potassium Bicarbonate BC Powder (Invented by the US Navy and often called Purple K after the pigmentation of the leading brand). More expensive than Sodium Bicarbonate the Potassium ion was found to have a greater affinity for free radicals and was twice as effective.

- Urea based Potassium Bicarbonate BC Powder (Monnex) As with other BC powders, Monnex interferes with the chemical reactions which occur within the combustion zone. However, the unique property of Monnex is that within the combustion zone, the high temperature causes the powder to explode and break into minute particles giving a very large surface area which effects the extinction of the flames. Monnex is the only powder to possess this unique property. Due to the low density of Monnex, it is not normally possible to charge an extinguisher to its normal capacity. A 75% charge by weight is considered average.


ABC Powders are mixtures of ammonium phosphate and ammonium sulphate, ground to selected particle sizes and treated with flow promoting and moisture repellent additives. They are acidic in nature and are effective on Class A (flammable solids), Class B (flammable liquid/liquifiable solids) and Class C (flammable gas) fires. They are electrically non-conductive.

In addition to the particle surface extinguishing effect of a Class B powder, Class ABC powders have low melting/decomposition points in the order of 150°C to 180°C. When these powders are applied to hot and smouldering surfaces, the particles fuse and swell to form a barrier which excludes oxygen and thereby completes the extinguishing process and prevents re-ignition.

Most powder extinguishers in service and almost all now marketed (except aerosols) are ABC Powder.

Different blends are available, the more ammonium phosphate, the more effective it is.

Class D powders are designed for fires in flammable metals and three main types are in use-

-  Sodium Chloride for certain Class D fires, those involving alkali metals such as sodium and potassium, also zirconium, uranium and powdered aluminum, extinguishes a metal fire by fusing to form a crust. This excludes oxygen from the surface of the molten metal; a carbonaceous rafting agent prevents the powder from sinking into the surface of molten metal
- Copper extinguishing agent specially developed by the U.S. Navy for fighting lithium and lithium alloy fires. The copper compound smothers the fire and provides an excellent heat sink for dissipating heat. Copper powder has been found to be superior to all other known fire extinguishing agents for lithium.

- Ternary Eutectic Chloride, developed by UKAEA for uranium fires, which works similarly to Sodium Choride. It is extremely toxic.

Although modern powders are non-toxic, the discharge of a powder extinguisher in a confined space can cause a sudden reduction of visibility which may temporarily jeopardize escape, rescue or other emergency action. For this reason water-based extinguishers are to be preferred in hospitals, old people's homes and hotels. Powder extinguishers are prohibited to be used in PSV's and minibuses by statute law for the above reason.

Most fire engines carry an ABC Powder extinguisher aboard for small Class B, C & electrical fires and a common use of the powder extinguisher on an appliance is to tackle post box fires with minimal secondary damage to mail.

Other than the above scenerio powder extinguishers are considered to have high secondary damage potential and are not advised for protection of electrical hazards, especially sensitive electronics. Powder, specifically ABC powder is not permitted in or near aircraft as it can damage the metal superstructure.

When used on Class B fires, Powder must extinguish the whole fire area in an uninterupted application or flashback will occur as unlike foam there is no physical barrier - it's all or nothing. The lack of a securing blanket means there is a re-ignition risk. Also powder has no cooling properties, one of the reasons it is uneffective against class F fires as although it can extinguish the flame, the heat of the fat will cause immediate flashback.

Powder is used with Foam in motorsport, with powder being used for the initial rapid knockdown and Foam to cool and provide flashback protection.

Sodium Bicarbonate Powders, unless specially treated, are not compatible with Foams; Purple-K, Monnex and ABC Powders are generally less damaging, and often are used with AFFF & FFFP, but compatibility must be borne in mind where powder and foam are used together and a higher application rate of foam allowed for.
Anthony Buck
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Offline John Webb

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powder fire extinguishers
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2006, 11:02:45 AM »
Further to Anthony's excellent summary and in particular his comment about 'high secondary damage potential', you may be interested to know that one insurer, the Ecclesiastical Insurance Group who cover many churches in the UK, have recently advised their clients not to have DP extinguishers on their premises. This follows recent vandalism in a church where a DP extinguisher was discharged - they are now spending many thousands of pounds clearing up the mess. This includes removing all powder from ledges etc where there are fears the fabric of the building could be affected if it were left. The organ is also having to be completely dismantled and cleaned out to ensure no powder is left in it to cause either chemical or physical damage, particularly to moving parts.

DP can be used on Class C (gas) fires, but like liquid fuel fires there is a risk of the fire reigniting, perhaps explosively, if the gas cannot be immediately turned off after extinction.
John Webb
Consultant on Fire Safety, Diocese of St Albans
(Views expressed are my own)

Offline Tom Sutton

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powder fire extinguishers
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2006, 06:55:06 PM »
AnthonyB
Your potted history on dry powder was excellent do you have any on other types of extinguishers.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline nim

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powder fire extinguishers
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2008, 12:16:32 AM »
Quote from: AnthonyB
Everything you needed to know & more besides!
Powder extinguishers are prohibited to be used in PSV's and minibuses by statute law for the above reason.
Know this is a very old post but read this and would be interested to know are they prohibited by statute or is it a VOSA thing or are they one and the same?

Offline wee brian

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powder fire extinguishers
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2008, 08:43:49 AM »
Anthony B is full of this stuff - Ant have you written a book? I may be tempted to buy it.

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powder fire extinguishers
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2008, 12:39:36 PM »
Excellent post Anthony B - I bow at your feet in awe.

I wonder if you are as knowledgeable about women - I have difficulty in understanding them !!!

Offline AnthonyB

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« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2008, 05:11:00 PM »
The Public Service Vehicles (Conditions of Fitness, Equipment, Use and Certification) Regulations 1981 as amended by Regulation 42 of The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 detail extinguisher requirements.


Every PSV or minibus needs a water or foam extinguisher rated no less than 8A and/or 21B. Although halon is still mentioned since the The Environmental Protection (Controls on Ozone-Depleting Substances) Regulations 2002 a halon extinguisher will be considered a Reason for Failure on any public service vehicle presented for test.

Taxis can have powder extinguisher dependant on their licensing authority - many allow powder but the odd one applies the PSV standard.

The use of ratings not capacity allows the use of non EN3 sizes - 1 litre foams are still manufactured for PSV use as they take up less space and in older vehicles fit the storage recesses buit in for the former universal 1.5 kilo BCF extinguisher
Anthony Buck
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Offline Psuedonym

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powder fire extinguishers
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2008, 06:21:27 PM »
Without getting my anorak on and checking out BS5306 word for word, there is a little bit of advice in there regarding removing powder from vunerable people re visual and respiratory issues.
Next time you have the dubious pleasure of walking into a NHS hospital, just have a look around at the types of portable kit available for all to play with.
Two Examples:
Until very recent times i.e. a couple of months ago, my local Hospital had a 6Kg Powder (Chubb OK clip missing) sat at the front doors. That had been in situ for literally years as well as many others in public access areas troughout the hospital buildings.
XXXXXXXXX  has a 9Lt Water, 2Kg Co2 and 6Kg Powder at each fire point stand throughout the building (50 ish points). The only extinguisher with any problems (pin and seal missing) was outside Theatre 3. 6Kg Powder. Fully charged.

The message just ain't getting through.
:rolleyes:


ps nice bit of info AB!

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Offline RFPS

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powder fire extinguishers
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2008, 09:54:18 PM »
Firstly let me say hello to everyone on this forum.  I have a fire protection business over here in Ireland.  Just thought I'd comment on Chubb OK pins.  I supplied Chubb extinguishers to customers over here for a number of years and when I call to clients each year to service their extinguishers, there are always a few Chubb extinguishers where the pins are missing for whatever reason.  (We can save the discussions as to why no one carries out periodic checks on them during the year for another day!).  It is for this reason that I have now started to fit pull tight seals onto them.  I know other posters such as Anthony Buck (who I have to say is a wealth of information for all of us) will disagree with this as it implies that some companies do not know their kit (and rightly so!) but I do explain to all staff present, the importance of removing the pull tight before attempting to pull the yellow pin.  I'd be interested to hear your comments (especially Anthony B's) on this issue.

In relation to extinguishers on buses etc, Powder is allowed to be fitted in vehicles.  Indeed, I have noticed that on some new coaches built in Spain & Portugal, the factory fitted extinguishers are 6Kg Powders (albeit with the instructions in Spanish!).

Finally, it was mentioned in a previous thread about manufacturers of extinguishers.  Over here, most extinguishers are assembled in Ireland by a company called AJ Edge.  Although not kitemarked, they carry the CE mark and having used them in addition to other manufacturers,  the quality of their products is in my opinion excellent.  So much so, they are now my main supplier.

Offline AnthonyB

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« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2008, 10:44:23 PM »
Powder is allowed on EU builds or non UK registered buses visiting and outside of the UK (such as Ireland), but still doesn't meet the UK requirements of the Construction & Use regulations for UK fit outs and registered vehicles - however at the end of the day it is down to the VOSA inspectors as to how strict they apply this - if it is serviceable, meets the ratings and isn't halon, they may well let it through. The UK regs shy away from powder for the same reasons that BS5306 does - imagine the effect on the occupants that a powder extinguisher would have discharged inside a bus!

The main point with the design of the plastic Chubb OK pin and the Ceo Deux cartridge valve OK pin is that it IS the anti tamper seal. If it is broken, then even if it is put back in then its a sign the extinguisher may have been used. There is absolutely no reason to use a pull seal with an intact assembled two part OK pin - you only need one if you have run out of replacements and are having to reuse one part of the broken pin (naughty but we've all been there).
If you use a pull seal with an intact OK pin you invalidate the EN3 compliance as the amount of force in Newtons required to break both exceeds the maximum tolerances allowed. Of course you train staff to seperately break the seal, but the instruction label says just pull the pin, no seperate action required. Gloria (who use the Ceo Deux head) have issued circulars on this matter in the past.

You could argue this it nit picking and I admit there are more important failings seen in maintenance - however there is an important allied issue:

The Chubb (& Gloria stored pressure models used by Kidde FPS) use a round pin body on the frangible pins to go through a round hole in the head. However the Ceo Deux head (used by the long defunct Allied Safety, and current Gloria & Total cartridge extinguishers) is D shaped with a corresponding D hole in the head.

With the Chubb pin you can safely twist it as you pull it out. But if you twist the Ceo Deux pin the shaft will stick and you can snap off the ring end. You are now left with an extinguisher that you can't use unless you've got a set of pliers. This has happened a few times and one big UK company who had a lot of Gloria cartridge extinguishers issued a bulletin to ensure that when serviced the plastic OK pins were replaced with metal pins - the TG safety pin & ring 19/99005 fits nicely

If AJ Edge supply your extinguishers then they may well be the non kitemarked NOHA range (who they are the Ireland importer/distributor for) - which is actually a rebranded Gloria extinguisher from Germany, which as well as NOHA & Chubb (& TG, etc, etc) are all part of the UTC group! They will be good quality as they are the same model that passes kite marking in the UK and TUV in Germany.
Anthony Buck
Owner & Fire Safety Consultant at Fire Wizard


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Offline RFPS

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« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2008, 11:26:38 PM »
Thanks for that Anthony, with regard to AJ Edge's extinguishers, they assemble them over here.  As far as I know, Luxfer in the U.K. supply their CO2 cyclinders but I think their Water/Foam/Powder cylinders come from Germany.  

Speaking of Extinguishers, have you ever come across the MAIP brand of extinguisher?  They were a French brand of cartridge operated extinguisher which were imported into Ireland during the 1980's.  The State Transport Company bought thousands of these and they were fitted into buses and trains at the time.  There were two models.  The original had a traditional squeeze lever handle and the water versions were labelled "Water with Wetting Agent" which apparently covered diesel fuel on buses.  The newer model had a Sicilli type head with a single handle.  A non removeable pin, when pulled upwards, would allow the handle to be pushed downwards, thus puncturing the CO2 cartridge.  It also punctured a plastic bottle containing the solution, to produce foam.

Offline nearlythere

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powder fire extinguishers
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2008, 07:51:47 AM »
Quote from: John_s.webb
Further to Anthony's excellent summary and in particular his comment about 'high secondary damage potential', you may be interested to know that one insurer, the Ecclesiastical Insurance Group who cover many churches in the UK, have recently advised their clients not to have DP extinguishers on their premises. This follows recent vandalism in a church where a DP extinguisher was discharged - they are now spending many thousands of pounds clearing up the mess. This includes removing all powder from ledges etc where there are fears the fabric of the building could be affected if it were left. The organ is also having to be completely dismantled and cleaned out to ensure no powder is left in it to cause either chemical or physical damage, particularly to moving parts.

DP can be used on Class C (gas) fires, but like liquid fuel fires there is a risk of the fire reigniting, perhaps explosively, if the gas cannot be immediately turned off after extinction.
It never ceases to amaze me that DP extinguishers are still being recommended by the suppliers for kitchens, labs etc. Any I come across I advise that they are replaced by a more suitable media. I even had a case of an occupier being advised to provide a DP beside a foam.
As John knows the mess these things make would close any kitchen down for a week for cleaning.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline nim

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powder fire extinguishers
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2008, 09:10:14 AM »
Quote from: psuedonym
Without getting my anorak on and checking out BS5306 word for word, there is a little bit of advice in there regarding removing powder from vunerable people re visual and respiratory issues.
You mean this.

Extract from;
BRITISH STANDARD BS 5306-8:2000

Fire extinguishing installations and equipment on premises

Part 8: Selection and installation of portable fire extinguishers - Code of practice

6.2 Class A fires in carbonaceous solids
………..“The discharge of a powder extinguisher in a confined space can cause a sudden reduction of visibility which may temporarily jeopardize escape, rescue or other emergency action. For this reason water-based extinguishers are to be preferred in hospitals, old people's homes and hotels.”

also
 
Extract from;

Fire Safety Risk Assessment
Residential Care Premises

Powder extinguishers (Blue)
“……Powder extinguishers can create a loss of visibility and may affect people who have breathing problems and are not generally suitable for confined spaces.”

Published by the Department for Communities and Local Government, Eland House, Bressenden Place
London SW1E 5DU, May 2006.

Offline The Reiver

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powder fire extinguishers
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2008, 12:03:27 PM »
Quote from: RFPS
I have a fire protection business over here in Ireland.  
Just thought I'd comment on Chubb OK pins.  I supplied Chubb extinguishers to customers over here for a number of years and when I call to clients each year to service their extinguishers, there are always a few Chubb extinguishers where the pins are missing for whatever reason.  (We can save the discussions as to why no one carries out periodic checks on them during the year for another day!).  It is for this reason that I have now started to fit pull tight seals onto them.  I know other posters such as Anthony Buck (who I have to say is a wealth of information for all of us) will disagree with this as it implies that some companies do not know their kit (and rightly so!) but I do explain to all staff present, the importance of removing the pull tight before attempting to pull the yellow pin.  I'd be interested to hear your comments (especially Anthony B's) on this issue.
Even though this has little to do with the original post
My comment is...........STOP THIS PRACTICE AND STOP IT NOW!!!!!!!!

Although I'm not a lover of the "C" word or the "C" kit and have no idea of how the liability laws operate in Eire, you are playing with fire (no pun intended........much) in blatently contravening a specific manufacturers maintenance instruction. Chubb have put numerous circulars out to the trade on this matter.
They basically state that all bets are off (in attempting to claim from them) if you get a "failure to operate" under ANY circumstances if the OK pin has been secondary sealed with any other device. I believe Gloria have put a similar circular out too.

If your clients aren't carrying out their visual checks, that's their problem if it hits the fan not yours.
By carrying out the aforementioned act, if it hits the fan, it will then be your problem and not theirs.
The court will then back the manufacturer on this and rightfully so.
It's simply non-compliant maintenance.

Cover your back marrer !!! :) (you did ask for comments)
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