Requirement for written fire risk assessments

[nearlythere]

The inspector carries out the inspection and tells the RP what he's missed and what he needs to do to put it right.  Goodbye 5(4) Notice - hello Enforcement Notice.

So much for self compliance .... or am I missing something ?

No Fred shouldn't happen as long as it is enforced correctly but you raise a good point. It is not the role of the enforcing authority to tell the responsible person exactly what to do...if it was we would be back to 5(4) OR 8(5) notices.

It is usually quite obvious, in my opinion of course, if a risk assessment is suitable and sufficient...there should be no need to inspect the whole of the building to determine this fact.

If it is not suitable or sufficient...just tell them that fact...why it is not.......and tell them to do another. But I know that many FRS are still trying to come to terms with this culture change.

How can you tell if a risk assessment is suitable and sufficient if you do not inspect the whole building in order to ascertain if all significant risks have been identified and assessed?

[Mike Buckley]

Bear in mind the RRO calls for the recording of significant findings not risks. So in my view the risk assessment must record the risk and whether or not suitable precautions have been taken. So the finding that the means of escape from the third floor is via an internal protected staircase and an alternative external escape, is equally significant as the finding that the means of escape is not satisfactory and the following recommendations are made.

Also as far as the clinet and an inspecting officer is cconcerned, which creates a better image, an assessment that just lists what is wrong or an assessment that lists what is done correctly and what improvements need to be made.

[nearlythere]

The inspector carries out the inspection and tells the RP what he's missed and what he needs to do to put it right.  Goodbye 5(4) Notice - hello Enforcement Notice.

So much for self compliance .... or am I missing something ?

No Fred shouldn't happen as long as it is enforced correctly but you raise a good point. It is not the role of the enforcing authority to tell the responsible person exactly what to do...if it was we would be back to 5(4) OR 8(5) notices.

It is usually quite obvious, in my opinion of course, if a risk assessment is suitable and sufficient...there should be no need to inspect the whole of the building to determine this fact.

If it is not suitable or sufficient...just tell them that fact...why it is not.......and tell them to do another. But I know that many FRS are still trying to come to terms with this culture change.

How can you tell if a risk assessment is suitable and sufficient if you do not inspect the whole building in order to ascertain if all significant risks have been identified and assessed?

Does a risk assessment also include significant findings in relation to any risk from fire from a process which is undertaken within the premises, in addition to the means of escape?

[PhilB]

Only if the process fire risk affects the general fire precautions. HSE will deal with process fire risks, the fire safety order deals with general fire precautions.

[Dinnertime Dave]

How can you tell if a risk assessment is suitable and sufficient if you do not inspect the whole building in order to ascertain if all significant risks have been identified and assessed?

You can`t entirely, I assume your brigade uses the CFOA guidance on the audit process. This document covers the audit principles, how to carryout the audit and the verification of standards.

Verification of standards must include a risk critical constituent, then if you find major deficiences in this area then a full inspection of all risk critical constituents is to be made. You document the area choosen on the audit form to cover your brigade (oh sorry I meant yourself) the FSO has an advantage here over the consultant he should have years of history in a file.

Then you use the nationally agreed 'get out letter' that states that:-  

I am pleased to advise you that, at the time of the visit, a satisfactory standard of fire safety was evident. The visit was not a comprehensive audit of all fire safety matters but looked into a variety of aspects from which our findings are drawn.

You should be aware that you have an ongoing responsibility to maintain that standard and to carry out periodic reviews to ensure that safety provision remains adequate.

[nearlythere]

Only if the process fire risk affects the general fire precautions. HSE will deal with process fire risks, the fire safety order deals with general fire precautions.

Thanks PhilB.
Are the general fire precautions and fire risk not relevant to each other? If there was a hot flame process would this not be assessed for any significant risk involved and control measures applied, whatever that might be?
Do you see a difference between a risk to an operator from a process and a risk to persons in general from the process?
I assumed that as part of an risk assessment the person or persons exposed to the risk were identified. The risk to a person could have the potential to be a risk to all.

[Mike Buckley]

I agree with Dave you can't cover everything, but under the new regime are you meant to? The companies who take their responsibilities seriously will be pretty self evident by their FRA and general set up, in those cases surely all that is needed is a quick look at an area to ensure that the FRA does address the situation and then take it on trust that the rest of it is up to the same standard. If the FRA does not address the situation or the firm is totally unsatisfactory, then you need to get dug in and take action.

Just as in the old days doing reinspections of certificated premises you could get a quick idea of whether the company was on the ball in which case a quick once over was all that was needed, or whether the company needed some help or encouragement then you had to roll up your sleeves and get stuck in.

As the get out letter states you can only assess the company at the time of your visit. You cannot guard against all the fire doors being wedged open as soon as you walk out of the front door.

[PhilB]

Only if the process fire risk affects the general fire precautions. HSE will deal with process fire risks, the fire safety order deals with general fire precautions.

Thanks PhilB.
Are the general fire precautions and fire risk not relevant to each other? If there was a hot flame process would this not be assessed for any significant risk involved and control measures applied, whatever that might be?
Do you see a difference between a risk to an operator from a process and a risk to persons in general from the process?
I assumed that as part of an risk assessment the person or persons exposed to the risk were identified. The risk to a person could have the potential to be a risk to all.

Absolutely Nearlythere it does become complicated and process fire risks will often have a bearing on general fire precautions. However in the nastier scarier premises there should be competent persons appointed to assist the responsible person and they should be able to assist enforcing authorities by providing relevant technical info if necessary.