Requirement for written fire risk assessments

[Rocha]

I have recently undertaken a fire risk assessment of a small shopping complex which included a key cutting company in a small unit.  As they only employed two persons I advised that a written fire risk assessment is not required, although recomended.

However I have subsequently found out that this tenant has more than one shop in the area and employs more than five persons in total for all the shops, although no more than two persons per shop.

Will a written fire risk assessment need to be produced for all shops individually or collectively??

Thanks,

Rocha

[kurnal]

As you say the findings of the risk assessment need to be recorded due to the numbers employed. It will be very difficult to account for the significant findings  of different locations in a single document as the need for co-operation  and communication will be very different- with different other responsible persons. So I think the only practical way would be for seperate Records of significant findings for each premise. I think the Regs would say as long as they were recorded and suitable it does not matter how this is achieved.
Personally for multi occs I usually produce one master for the building with separate mini sections for each occupier and then bring the findings together at the end in a single action plan. This approach usually works, although sometimes there are issues of confidentiality eg jewellers that make a seperate document necessary.

[Rocha]

Would this therefore mean that, for example a National Lottery RMU in the mall of a multi occupied shoping centre that is occupied by only 1 member of staff, would require a written documented fire risk assessment???

[Pip]

yes, it is not how many people employed in each location, it is how many employed in total

[kurnal]

Dont forget that the duty is to record the significant findings of the risk assessment- not the whole risk assessment. so it should not be too onerous.

[steve walker]

Dont forget that the duty is to record the significant findings of the risk assessment- not the whole risk assessment. so it should not be too onerous.

Kurnal,  what do you consider to be the significant findings?

[kurnal]

I will just wait before answering this one in case my old mate philB is around.... this is his soapbox....

[jokar]

The significant findings are described in Article 9 are those bits noted as significant plus the control measures in existence and those to come, it is no longer a list.  Best example, a Petroleum filling station significant finding is that there is a darn great tank of spirit underground plus pipework and control valves plus shut off valves in the kiosk.  Plus anything extra that is identified.

[steve walker]

Ok, I just wanted to see if it was agreed that a record of control measures was required.

I remember that there was some argument about if the significant findings was just a list of failures to comply with the FSO at the time of the assessment.

[jokar]

Under MHSWR, failure list, under RR(FS)O then you are right.

[PhilB]

OK Kurnal where's my soapbox?

It is unfortunate that they decided not to define significant findings in the fire safety order and it also unfortunate that they have defined them poorly in the new guides and  that the new definition differs from the one given in the ACOP to MHSW Regs.

They originally defined them in the draft new guide as a list of defects........eventually they listened to my ranting and raving and that is one reason for the delay in publishing the guides. They amended the defintion but it is still poor.

But if you read the Order it is quite clear in article 9 what needs to be recorded:

(a) the significant findings of the assessment, including the measures which have been or will be taken by the responsible person pursuant to this Order; and
(b) any group of persons identified by the assessment as being especially at risk.

The measures that have been taken must , in my opinion, include the preventive and protective measures. Thankfully these preventive and protective measures are defined in the order. They are the measures that have been identified in your risk assessment as the general fire precautions you need to take.

General fire precations are also defined in the order and include means of escape, means for securing means of escape, means for giving warning etc....in fact the same things that a fire certificate had to specify. The easiest way to record these items is by using a plan. If you can record them some other way you can but surely a plan is preferable.

Finally don't forget that under the FP Workplace legislation and the fire safety order there was/is a requirement to record the fire safety arrangements if five or more are employed. i.e. planning, organisation, control, monitoring and review. HSG65 is still very relevant.

The significant findings are clearly a lot more than a list of defects.

I will now put my soapbox away.

[kurnal]

Its the way you tell em PhilB- and thats the clearest explanation I have seen on this subject.
Dont break up the box yet because this is sure to crop up again and again -  and is another candidate for a potential FAQs section in the forum.

Bit puzzled by the last statement though. FP workplace legislation is no longer relevant at all and and the role of HSG65? This is only  guidance and as duties under  the Fire Safety Order are not subject to  the umbrella of the Management Regs  (and therefore  ACOP L21)   why should HSG 65 have any particular relevance?

[PhilB]

Quite right as usual Kurnal, WPFP legislation is no longer with us but the requirements that were in that by virtue of the management regs are mirrored in the fire safety order and HSG65 gives excellent guidance that is relevant for fire safety and health and safety management systems, in my opinion only of course.

I have been away from this forum for a while, and I am no longer associated with that place in Gloucestershire but I had to come out of hiding to join this debate. What ever happened to our dear friend Toddy?

[kurnal]

Welcome back then PhilB and congratulations on your escape. Did they find and re-insert the right brain from all those   pickling jars before they let you out?

Let me know what you are doing now if you can. But if its top secret I understand. My mate Lucky tells me there are spies in the camp. for all I know CT may have been captured, confined to an institution and had his keyboard confiscated, it looks like hes only allowed one message on royal birthdays.

[Ken Taylor]

And by way of reminder, they will also need to have recorded the significant findings of their risk assessments under the MHSW Regs for each of their outlets.

Presumably Colin is busy writing more BSs.