Should an Anonymous phonecall be made?

[stewbow]

A local Tanning Shop manageress knows that she has to do a FRA, and knows that she needs her Extinguishers servicing, but her boss (I think there are 3 shops owned by the same guy) has told her not to bother doing it, or spend any money.

She doesn't want to rock the boat, but what if she is the RP?

Would it be right in this sort of case for somebody to inform the FO. What would the FO do if he received such a call?

thanks

Stuart

[Gasmeter]

I think she should write a polite memo to the boss about it, mentioning her concern about her position as she is likely to be  the RP as the shop manager.  If the boss doesn't respond then at least she'll have a copy of what she has done.  If she informs the local fire service I would expect them to be very careful about implicating her as their informant,  perhaps they could write to several other businesses in the immediate area about FRAs.  She could also carry out her own FRA using one of the downloadable versions that exist, it would be better than nothing!

[jokar]

Lets be clear, the boss is the RP as an employer.  The manageress could be the nominated person under Article 5(3).  The shop has to be licensed and as such the FRA would need to be recorded.  Whether the FRS would visit such a low risk premises is debatable, they are supposedly only targetting high risk stuff.  The boss is breaking the law but as many do in lots of legislation only when they are caught out will they rectify the situation.  A couple of bits of paper never made a building safe and providing the premises are reasonably safe then it may never arise as an issue.

[kurnal]

Yes the boss is the RP as the employer - that is clear.
Could the manageress also be considered to be a responsible person - this depends on her job description and contract of employment. I would assume that the employer is probably based at head office and each shop managed locally by a manager- who may therefore have some control over the building to some extent.

The Fire Safety Order 2005 gives all responsible persons duties in so far as they have control over a building or any part of it.

If the manager identifies significant findings and keeps mum because the employer wants to save money, then the manager is vulnerable to legal action and civil claims. If however they identify the hazards, record their concerns and can show evidence of having gone to the limit of their authority to rectify it then, and only then, have they shown due diligence.
In my opinion of course.

[terry martin1]

It is quite simple to inform the fire service of a concern. ring their switchboard (No. would be in any local directory) and ask to be put through to the Fire Safety team, explain the situation to them, it would not even be necessary for you to leave your details.
The fire service would then attend the workplace on the premis of a routine inspection. once under the radar the RP 'boss' would then have to comply.
doing it this way would maintain annonymity of the employee.
also, any member of the public can use this facility, you do not have to be involved with the workplace in any way.

hope this helps

[PhilB]

But  are the extinguishers needed at all??

I agree with Jokar that for lower risk premises the FRS probably wouldn't and shouldn't in my opinion, be too interested. They should be concentrating on scary places indentified in their risk based inspection programme. Surely all FRS have implemented their risk based inspection programmes by now!!!!!!

I also agree with Kurnal as to who could be responsible and would add that all employees also have a responsibility by virtue of article 23 to take care of themselves and others and to report any deficiencies that they are capable of noticing to their employers.

So the manageress has to take action so far as relates to matters within her control......she also has a duty to inform her employer of deficiencies she is aware of. If her employer choses to ignore her and it takes the form of a pear....he will probably have to appear before the man in the fuuny wig!

[Firewolf]

All complaints made to the Fire Authority are treated in the strictest of confidence and have to be followed up normaly within three working days.

So if the manageress did decide to "dob" in her boss there is no way the fire officer would or  could divuldge where the complaint was made.

I agree with what PhilB said about not getting worried about smaller premises to a degree, but by virtue of the national complaints procedure we would have to visit the premises anyway to investigate the complaint. And while we are there we can do something proactive. We can improve things.

The Manageress could do one of two things:-

a) As someone already mentioned - write a memo to the boss saying that she has concerns

b) Make a complaint - tell the local fire officer who she is and why she is concerned - remember the Fire Officer would not divulge who the complainant is to the boss of the company.

If its on file that she complained I perosnally think it would help exonerate her should anything happen on the premises i.e;:-

"I've tried to tell my boss to get this sorted, he wont listen and im still worried that we arent complying with the law - I just dont have the authority to implement change or do anything about it. I don't know what to do and fear my neck is on the line"


Im sure a judge would look at that favourably.

[ian gough]

Come on guys...."a tanning shop manageress" with an unserviced fire extinguisher - my guess is that the fire officer would drop whatever he was doing and get round there pronto with blue lights and two tone horns!

[cazzer_uk]

:lol:

[Donna]

All complaints made to the Fire Authority are treated in the strictest of confidence and have to be followed up normaly within three working days.

So if the manageress did decide to "dob" in her boss there is no way the fire officer would or  could divuldge where the complaint was made.

I agree with what PhilB said about not getting worried about smaller premises to a degree, but by virtue of the national complaints procedure we would have to visit the premises anyway to investigate the complaint. And while we are there we can do something proactive. We can improve things.

The Manageress could do one of two things:-

a) As someone already mentioned - write a memo to the boss saying that she has concerns

b) Make a complaint - tell the local fire officer who she is and why she is concerned - remember the Fire Officer would not divulge who the complainant is to the boss of the company.

If its on file that she complained I perosnally think it would help exonerate her should anything happen on the premises i.e;:-

"I've tried to tell my boss to get this sorted, he wont listen and im still worried that we arent complying with the law - I just dont have the authority to implement change or do anything about it. I don't know what to do and fear my neck is on the line"


Im sure a judge would look at that favourably.

Cough Cough!
I wish I could agree, "with the 3 working days" bit,  I made a formal complaint back in August, to my local FSO, about, 1. A BUILDING WITH NO FIRE ESCAPES (other than the entrance stairs),
2. PARTIALLY BLOCKED CORRIDORS,
3. The only DISABLED ACCESS, HAS THE DOOR LOCKED, AND 2 MORE INTERNAL DOORS LOCKED ON ROUTE TO MAIN PART OF BUILDING,(stannahwheelchair lift makes this an unsuitable fire exit)
4, When I telephoned the tenants of the building that do the wedding venues, to ask about responsible persons, whos in charge out of the "2" staff imployed on such a day, they didnt know, "anything about that"

They (the FSO) STILL havent visited building yet, and this building holds 200 people, its now 28th Oct!
I was told last week that they have to notify the owners and tenants of the building that they are planning to visit, (what, so to give them time to "act all safe" so nothing gets seen as it is) I am so confused dot com!

[Firewolf]

Hi Donna

Under the 'local authority enforcement concordat' fire inspectors should notify premises owners that they intend to inspect their premises. But this applies to routine inspections only.

When investigating a complaint fire officers can just turn up on the door step and enter the premises without warning.

As far as I was aware fire authorities nationwide have all signed up to the "three working day" complaints procedure.

If you still wish to pursue this further my advice would be to phone the fire officer again, ask him/her to confirm their brigade's complaints procedure - ask how much time are they supposed to act on them, and if you dont get a satisfactory response contact the headquaters of the brigade and pass on your concerns .

There may be a valid reasons why the officer has not acted immediately but wherever possible the officer should explain why (bear in mind however that the data protection act applies here so s/he wont be able to discuss the specifics with you).

If the fire officer states "that it is being dealth with" im afraid thats all you can do - youll just have to leave it with them. If you are not satisfied put in a complaint to the brigade's headquarters.

[Donna]

Cheers Firewolf,
I will chase them up again tomorrow, it just seems to be treated as "too laid back" for my liking, I am dissapointed in the system, as the complaint I made was justified and warranted a little more positiveness. ps, and it wasnt an annonymous complaint either, I was up-front about it and they have my full name etc

[PhilB]

It could be Donna that there isn't really a problem. FRS cannot be expected to drop everything and inspect every time someone asks them to. In an ideal world it would be nice but there are limited resources. The responsible person has a duty to comply with the law, the FRS have a duty to enforce the order but that will be done using a risk based inspection programme.

In the example you give the existing exits may be perfectly adequate, you say there are partially blocked corridors, do they need to be completely sterile?

But I would agree with firewolf that you should raise your concerns with the FRS, they should explain what action they have taken or intend to take.

[Donna]

I understand your view Phil, but there is definately a problem, quite a big one!
If you scrol down the "fire safety" topics on this particular forum, to " Listed buildings, olde worlde hotels etc" go to post num 14, and I have gone into more detail, (to save me repeating myself)
Since that post the HSE have NOW admited that my comments about the dark corridor (that I was locked in ) was infact breaking the regulations, and the owners have been given notification to comply, but I only got this outcome from sending loads of emails, AND going to the complaints dept, as the first team wished just to read some documents!
I am also taking the matter to the DDA to whom are funding me, but thats just because of the disables side of things.
If you just tap in your toolbar "mum to sue court over poor wheelchair access" it brings up the paper it appeared in.

[PhilB]

Thanks Donna, I have read the posts you refer to. I would question wether this is really a fire safety issue or a DDA issue. As you know under the DDA there is a requirement to make reasonable adjustments, but please remember the word reasonable. This problem can be managed in other ways.

As far as fire safety is concerned not only does the responsible have to make reasonable adjustments to facilitate acces(DDA) they also have to take reasonable steps to ensure the safety of all relevant persons including persons with special needs. However it would not be reasonable to require all listed buildings to install new means of escape to solve the problems .

What regulations are you refering to that the HSE admitted were being breeched? The HSE are not often the enforcing authority for fire safety law.