Tactile signage

[Guest]

Has anybody out there been asked about the Disability Discrimination act and the requirement to provide Tactile signs from October this year?
I had to admit my ingnorance on the subect,when I was asked by a member of the public, if the advice she was getting from her Safety Sign Consultant was cosher.
 If true the cost implications for the college where she was safety officer would be significant.
I have checked out a few manufactures web sites and only one of them makes these signs anyway! is it a coincidence that the Sign Consultant     (who insited that all the Fire Safety signs on walls and doors must be tactile and incorporate braille ) also worked for this company?

 :?

[Billy]

If this was the case, would it not be easier and cheaper to fit a tactile guidance system such as www.simline.co.uk into the premises, which would always be at waist level and could be used by all persons (including Fire crews) in an emergency such as fire.
The alternative would appear to be fitting tactile signs that only a small minority of people would use, and forgive my ignorance, but how do you find a tactile sign if you are visually impaired ?

[AnthonyB]

Tactile Fire Signs = companies trying to swiz money out of companies by using the DDA as an excuse

It's another "bandwagon" like when EN3 first came in an companies said you had to scrap all your existing equipment.

Another signs example is one company makes a selection of it's signs out of self extinguishing plastic at a vastly inflated price to it's normal ones citing all sorts of crap to try and get people to buy them - I'd be more worried about the impact of fire and smoke in a building than if my signs will char & burn (by which time anyone still around to read them would also be charring and burning.....)

[Guest]

I have had a quick look at this disability discrimination act and it would appear that suppliers are using the fact that people who are visually impaired should be given the same protection in relation to means of escape that is suitable for them.  
This would include signs and escape route marking that they can use.

Selling something with the backing of legislation would make it easier to convince buyers of its use, but I cannot understand how tactile signs would work?

[Jim Creak]

Conformance to the British Standard for Safety Signs BS5499 Pt 1,Pt 5 and specifically Part 4 for Escape Route Signs will fully satisfy all current UK and EU Legislation. The whole purpose of the revision process in 2000 and 2002 was to establish technical credentials, comprehension and to present guidance to comply with Building Regulations safety, fire safety and specifically means of escape legislation requirements. All British Standards Committee are tasked very heavily to consider the needs of the Disabled when revising or developing standards.. In fact the reason so many signs require supplementary text is that the committee are concerned that comprehension of the signs could be difficult for both the young and aged and people with learning difficulties. As for Braille only 10% of the registered Blind can read Braille thats if they can find the sign in the first place. Crazy!!!!

[Guest]

sorry but im on the side of the provision of tactile signs. in saying that i would add that i dont agree existing signs need to be replaced, just replace them when new signs are required (and not just because the law decrees!!) and replace them with tactile signs aswell, why not? as an individual, when i see a tactile sign i start to think of others and how they integrate both into the building and potentially the workplace and this discussion has certainly helped some contributors do that, and is that such a bad thing?

on a final note i would also add that i do make an assumption that associations such as rnib were consulted and they asked for or supported tactile signs, if that is truly the case then i dont need to make a further one!

[wee brian]

Sorry Dave but you're in the minority here.

People may see tactile signs as a way of doing something to address the needs of the visually impaired without having to do anything too difficult.

Its a pointless cop out.

[colin todd]

Sorry Davey, much as I would like to agree with you, I am with the wee b

[Chris Houston]

Firstly, I know nothing of these signs except what I have read on this forum.  But could someone answer this:

Surely the point of a sign is that it is visual and therefore only much good to someone who can see it.  Someone who cannot see it is unlikely to know it is there and therefore be unable to feel it.

What to the people with the visual impairments actually want?

[Guest]

I agree with you Chris, but I think that  this act is trying to ensure that people with visual disabilities are given the same level of protection as people with good sight.

As visually impaired people rely heavily on their sense of touch, and this is the only sense that a fire crew could rely on in a smoke-filled building- should we be looking at how they find their way in and out of buildings to try and improve things.
instead of signs that visually impaired people cannot see anyway, could tactile guidance systems not be a better alternative?

[Guest]

wee b, i couldnt agree more if thats how people interpret things, the mere provision of a tactile sign doesnt achieve much other than to show what good guys people are cos theyve got a sign, so you are of course correct. there are much wider issues to consider for persons with all sorts of impairments

the point i was trying to make (very badly of course) is that if organisations such as rnib asked for them, then why shouldnt they be provided, its not for me as an able sighted person to tell them no cos i dont think its a good idea! there seems to be something immoral in making that assumption. i assume that because it is in the legislation that the arguments for and against have been considered and thats why they are recommended (or are they a requirement?)

what i am against is replacing them unnecessarily and i suppose this is where a risk assessment deems them unneccesary. i am also against quick fix companies pressuring people into buying or changing their signs because they can make a fast shilling

lastly, as i said before, if it makes us think of others and consider their difficulties then that is a bonus to the original intent.

[Guest]

Yep we've been looking into tactile and braille signs too.

Our organsiation has just forked out on thousands of pounds on combined tactile and braille colour contrasting signage to direct people around the building

The advice I got was as follows:-

- Most common visual impairments are those which affect a persons  colour perception In other words a person cant distinguish between colours or shades easily particularly if you have for instance to light colours together like yellow or white - the colours just merge into one. Therefore a sharp contrast in colours  is required on signage , walls and doors etc for persons to distinguish lettering and other features - im told emergency exit signage gives enough contrast for this purpose being white on green!

- Most of those whom are totally blind cant read braille and therefore tactile signage is the preferred option

- Braille and tactile signage are supposed to be  positioned at a uniform height throughout the building so that blind people can find them.They should also be positioned at any change of direction or junction etc etc As for what that set height is I dont know and of course what happens if that height is too tall for some people to reach??

[Chris Houston]

Nothing that I have read about such measure has convinced me of the need for them.

Do the people who promote such measures provide any evidence regarding numbers of injuries, deaths or near misses where people with visual impairments have struggled or failed to exit buildings?

[OneOffDave]

The tactile element on the sign is there not just for fire evacuation but so that a braille user can tell it's a fire exit sign and not one to the gents or a particular department.

They may not use the sign in an evacuation as they may be escorted out but will need to use the normal signage in the course of navigation around the building generally. Identifying the sign prevents confusion/frustration that might arise from an apparently 'blank' (from a braille perspective) sign.

Where I work, we have a sign providing information about our textphone facility, which would be of no use that anyone who is blind, but if they were following the wall looking for signs, the braille on this one tells them that it's not what they are looking for, rather than being blank and creating confusion.

The ones we use are high contrast and use raised lettering too. The Braille is done in the simpler type 'A' braille.

Dave

[Fishy]

If the visually impaired person works there then they should have a PEEP that enables their evacuation without the need for such signage.

If you might have visually impaired visitors or members of the public then it's assisted / supervised evacuation - no need for tactile signage.

The only (even partly) convincing reason that I've heard why the signage might be useful is that it enables visually impaired building occupants to become familiar with their evacaution route(s) without assistance.