To have, or not to have extinguishers

[stewbow]

Our local council have just made a decision to only ask for fire fighting equipment within the flats of HMO's. They are not asking for extinguishers within the communal areas.
I am assuming that they are throwing the burden towards the Risk Assessor, leaving it to him to make the decision whether or not to ask for them.
If you had a porpose built stone staircase with no combustables, then I agree, no need for them, but all the HMO's that I have seen in my area are converted Victorian Houses, normally with the electrics in the hallway cupboard. There have been a number of local fire bombing incidents over the years wheras tyhe entrance halls have been set on fire.
It seems to me that extinguishers in the communal areas would make the buildings safer to live in, and I can't understand why the council have changed thier long standing policy???

[Ashley Wood]

Stewbrew, its probably down to cost, AGAIN!

I commented recently on a similar thread on another forum. Lets take the scenario of a boiler repair man/woman working on a boiler in a communal area or an electrician working on the electric's, etc. He/she does something wrong or a new item of equipment he/she has installed fails and catches fire. If he/she had an extinguisher available then they could deal with the problem, however, if one was not available then all they can do is get out, call the fire service, and hope that all the residents get out.

I know what I would always advise when doing the FRA.

All the best

Ashley

[Big A]

Although it may be due to the fact that there is a great deal of misuse/theft of extinguishers and they are sometimes left empty as a result. I've been to places where extinguishers have been used as weapons. It's common practice in licensed premises not to leave extinguishers within reach of the public.

[jokar]

Who trains the occupants to use the extinguishers?  In Ashley's case scenario above if the engineer uses the extinguisher incorrectly and gets injured as a result, who is at fault.  I understand both points of view but it has to be understood that there is more than 1 viewpoint and that assessments have to be made on that basis.

[Andy Gwatkin]

I visited a  new build  school as a joint final insp with Bldg con this week, fitted with SPRINKLERS !! (previous one burnt down) and the L E A have stated their not fitting extinguishers at all, other than  in the kitchen area.Ive asked the L E A to see the FRA,just waiting for a reply tried to explain that a small bin fire may escalate and cause some damage before the sprinkler head goes off didn,t seem interested ??

[kurnal]

I agree with you big G your logic is correct. In a larger building I would be inclined to reduce the total A rating calculated by floor area but would otherwise provide extinguishers in locations and at spacing as set out in an unsprinklered building.

[val]

Two points, I know that the odpm/dclg intention was that SOME fire extinguishers would be virtually manadatory. Level of supply was negotiable. Reducing the chance of a small fire becoming a big fire is one of the best forms of risk reduction.

Second point, there is a lot of guff talked about training and H&S. Most non-specialist extinguishers are so simple to use that 30 seconds reading the instructions (preferably before the event) is often enough. Tell your staff, guests, sheltered housing residents etc that anything bigger than a waste paper basket is too big.
Has anyone any hard evidence that lack of training per se has caused any deaths or injuries?

[stewbow]

I get the impression that we are turning into a nation of pussies.
For thousands of years Man's domination over all other creatures is that we have had the ability to control (within limits) the elements, now suddenly we are told "any sign of a fire, get out", don't even think about trying to put it out, let the place burn down.
Then the fire brigade come along, carry out a risk assessment and say "nah, looks a bit iffy that one, take off the BA and spray some water on it"
I am waiting for the 1st EU sign saying "Do not use this bucket and sand unless you are trained to do so".
Imagine the case of a burst pipe on the top floor of a building, somebody sees it, sounds the water alarm, everybody runs out of the building for fear of drowning, the water board comes 45 minutes later and turns the stop cock off, but it's too late, £100,000 worth of decor, carpets, electrical goods etc have been lost to flood damage, but if the guy had gone under the sink and turn the stop tap off, then the problem would have been sorted before it got out of hand, makes common sence to me.
There's no difference in the case of a small fire, get the extinguisher and put it out if you can, I know I would.

[Chris Houston]

Try writing to your building insurers and tell them you are taking out Fire Extinguishers and see what happens.

Also try pre-empt what'll you'll do when:

A tiny fire starts in a waste paper basket.
A person's clothing catches fire.
Your escape route is blocked.
The sprinkler system is out of action for maintenance.

Then remind yourself that the vast majority of fires are put out by the public, not fire fighters.

[PhilB]

I get the impression that we are turning into a nation of pussies.
.

Quite agree Steve well said!  ...... the new law is quite clear, there is a duty to mitigate the effects if a fire does occur....a first in fire safety law!!!!  Now you cannot walk away and leave a small fire to grow into an inferno on the grounds that your staff may graze their fingers removing the safety pin from the extinguisher!

And if it ends before the man in the funny wig......someone will have to justify why it was not  "REASONABLY PRACTICABLE" to do more than was in fact done...."   not that I'm against a nation of pussies per se!!!!

[Ken Taylor]

I can think of a few HMOs where extinguishers in the common areas would be unnecessary and open to abuse or theft - but almost all I have visited would be good cases for extinguisher provision. Are they specifically saying that they are not required, Stewbow, saying that they need only be considered or just ignoring any reference to them in their published guidance?

[AnthonyB]

Incidentally one of the changes in EN3 was to improve labelling to make the correct selection & operation of an extinguisher easier by untrained people, hence the use of large pictograms etc.

At the end of the day its all saving money and nothing to do with risk - there are some examples of situations where they may not be appropriate, but they are few and specific.

In their favour you could argue they mitigate risk to fire fighters and the environment by putting out the fire whilst it is still only confined to the point of origin!

[Pip]

I visited a  new build  school as a joint final insp with Bldg con this week, fitted with SPRINKLERS !! (previous one burnt down) and the L E A have stated their not fitting extinguishers at all, other than  in the kitchen area.Ive asked the L E A to see the FRA,just waiting for a reply tried to explain that a small bin fire may escalate and cause some damage before the sprinkler head goes off didn,t seem interested ??

Ask them if it is a life or property system.My local lea fit property spec,with no relaxations to building regs, so they can turn them off and not worry that the people/building are at risk,so they supply extinguishers.

[jokar]

Just an interesting thought then, what happens when the system is down for maintenance or some other reason?  Do they evacuate the premises or continue without any protection?  Perhaps Big G you could ask them.  Chris is right about the Insurers though, any reason not to pay out and they will avoid it.

[ian gough]

Pip,

You don't need a life safety sprinkler system for a school - even in this case.