Fire Alarm Upgrade

[Redone]

Whilst admiring the plasterer skimming a ceiling at a care home yesterday I noticed that the fire resisting cable (new) from the new detector had been crimped onto the existing PVC from the old system...  Shouldn't the cable run 'complete' now be upgraded/protected?

Also the the installer wants to install sounders in each of the residents bedroom, or he claim's it will not be 'L1'?  

I'm sure this is not a requirement for care homes.  The alarm can be heard in all areas of the building by the staff as is.  He also says a new panel will be required to accomodate the sounders - not the detectors? - about 11 detectors required.

Is it me?

[Graeme]

The cable firstly should not be crimped but joined in a fire resistant juntion box with heat resistant connector block.
You can add onto old systems which have originally been instaled in twin and earth as long as the modifications conply with the current code of practice.

The existing panel may not be able to cope with the added load of new sounders.To comply with 5839-1 regards audibilty-75DBa minimum is required in bedrooms at bedhead level.

The existing panel may be a box of junk,as i so often see and a few care homes i have seen need the panels confined to the museum.

[val]

The audibility criteria is not always desirable in a care home. Sometimes a reduced sound level is acceptable especially if the nursing ratio is good. (Not very often, I agree).
No point scaring bedriden or very infirm people half to death every time a false alarm is generated.

[Thebeardedyorkshireman]

Val
I agree with your comments and have come across this before. None of my team can remember if it is just accepted  as good practice or if is documented anywhere? We have looked in all the obvious places but perhaps you could guide us to the document? Also on the same theme do you know where the 75dB door open 65dB door closed rule is printed?
Is it part 6 for dwelings ( we don't do dwelings so were a bit slow)
Can anyone help please?
Dave

[Pip]

Val
I agree with your comments and have come across this before. None of my team can remember if it is just accepted  as good practice or if is documented anywhere? We have looked in all the obvious places but perhaps you could guide us to the document? Also on the same theme do you know where the 75dB door open 65dB door closed rule is printed?
Is it part 6 for dwelings ( we don't do dwelings so were a bit slow)
Can anyone help please?
Dave

Reduction in dBA (minimum level of 45dBA) where 75dBA may cause alarm to people dependant on staff to help them escape:Page 59 new FSO residential guide

[Pip]

Val
I agree with your comments and have come across this before. None of my team can remember if it is just accepted  as good practice or if is documented anywhere? We have looked in all the obvious places but perhaps you could guide us to the document? Also on the same theme do you know where the 75dB door open 65dB door closed rule is printed?
Is it part 6 for dwelings ( we don't do dwelings so were a bit slow)
Can anyone help please?
Dave

65dBA/75dBa 'rule'- I dont know if there is such one, however BS5839-6 2004 (Fd and alarm systems in dwellings) para 13.1.2 observes that a detector at the top of the stairs is only likely to produce 55-65 dBA at the bed head if the bedroom door is closed- but there is no evidence to suggest that lives are being lost due to this, except where people are so incapacitated that even higher levels would not have woken them.hope this is of help

[Pip]

also BS5839-1 2002 para 16.2.3 makes recommendations in conjunction with HTM 82 (don't have access to a copy)

[Graeme]

b) Audible alarms in residential care premises should comply with 16.2.1, except that, if the alarm signal
is not intended to rouse occupants of some or all rooms from sleep, 16.2.1a)3) does not apply. Any
relaxation of 16.2.1a)3) should, however, be subject to the specific agreement of every authority
responsible for enforcing fire safety legislation in the premises.
NOTE More than one authority may be responsible for enforcing relevant legislation in residential care premises (e.g. the fire
authority and the social services department of the local authority).

[Pip]

meant did not have access to HTM 82- any one know if it says anything relevant?

[Pip]

enforcement now down to Fire service under FSO-CSCI may try and make additional requirements under registration.

[val]

NOTE More than one authority may be responsible for enforcing relevant legislation in residential care premises (e.g. the fire
authority and the social services department of the local authority).

Absolutely Pip,

CSCI have no legal role in enforcing fire safety, (though they may still try). Articles 41, 42 disapply any license or registration requirements concerning general fire precautions. Looking forward to first legal challenges.

[jokar]

Whilst the FRS will enforce, the whole FRA is down the the RP of the premises.  CSCI will not approve unless the FRS say ok but it is not there responsibility to do this.  The circle gets larger by the day.

[Brian Catton]

HTM 82 has been replaced by Firecode HTM 05:03 part B. Fire alarms and detection in healthcare premises. This doc refers to NHS premises but can be used as a guide for private premises. It talks about occupant profiling and I think it makes sence when read in conjunction with BS 5839.

[Thebeardedyorkshireman]

Thanks to all of you for the info. Trying to buy the new HTM today. As we all get older we forget where we read things and sometimes cant remember if it was just a debate or a rule! Must cut down on the red wine.
Dave

[Redone]

Thanks very much everyone - the sparky's on the way back to make good the job!