CARE HOMES - to inspecting officers

[Redone]

To all inspecting officers regarding the care industry.  How far will you or your Brigades policy go to ensure a home complies with the following requirements of the RRO?

Considering the cost implications are meant to be minimal, it's obvious to me that if full compliance is required the industry could collapse.

Following areas from the guide, what would you insist on?  

What if the manager is happy with current conditions, standards in the building, after all, he's done the assessment and he's happy with the current conditions and dosn't what to do anything?

Page 60 -  L1 system required where more than 10 residents above ground or significant number require assistance.

page 18 residents doors can be continually left open as long as fitted with suitable door closer... swing free - B1?

page 27 - evacuation plan, not reliant on rescue services.  Already been threated with procecution at a home with two night staff!

page 71 - Delayed evac.  Carer to stay with resident? Don't think so!

page 72 - FRA to show number of staff required to carryout the evacuation plan.

page 94 - Lifts

Would you accept a sprinkler system to BS9251:2004. installed for entire property. connected to a water storage tank and single electric pump for a care home as a compensatory feature?

[Pip]

To all inspecting officers regarding the care industry.  How far will you or your Brigades policy go to ensure a home complies with the following requirements of the RRO?

Considering the cost implications are meant to be minimal, it's obvious to me that if full compliance is required the industry could collapse.

Following areas from the guide, what would you insist on?  

What if the manager is happy with current conditions, standards in the building, after all, he's done the assessment and he's happy with the current conditions and dosn't what to do anything?

Page 60 -  L1 system required where more than 10 residents above ground or significant number require assistance.

page 18 residents doors can be continually left open as long as fitted with suitable door closer... swing free - B1?

page 27 - evacuation plan, not reliant on rescue services.  Already been threated with procecution at a home with two night staff!

page 71 - Delayed evac.  Carer to stay with resident? Don't think so!

page 72 - FRA to show number of staff required to carryout the evacuation plan.

page 94 - Lifts

Would you accept a sprinkler system to BS9251:2004. installed for entire property. connected to a water storage tank and single electric pump for a care home as a compensatory feature?

I am sure you will get differing views but here would be my expectations/comments:

P60-L1 or L2? not a requirement, only a reccommendation.For new (large) would ask for a L1,For an existing Large, would probably not get the backing for an enforcement so would accept L2.
P18-no problem with swing free-better than BS wedge, balance of safety/living standards
P27-if resi care , occupants should be mobile., if nursing more staff to help.
P71- if you read the whole passage there is a much much higher level of Fire protection required to consider this as an option, so cannot automatically rule it out.
P72- would not ask for it as no point if fulfilling other requirements in passage ie minimum staff is sufficient for evacuation plan.
P94-would not accept as it does only recommends a seperate, not an additional, power supply.However if there was an easily way of lowering lift to floor (ie hydraulic controls in lift shaft) might consider it
Sprinklers-not a life system is it? so no.

I am sure there will b others that can justify other views, and unless some case law, will have to live with that!

[jokar]

Have a look at the cooments in the new building regs from april with regard to care homes.  Pip is right the guides are recommnedations only.  The FRA will assess the risk and consider the appropriate control measures.  RP responsibility not the FRS.  They can attempt to enforce what they like but the onus of responsibility is on the RP not the FRS.  The major chnage in this legislation.

[Redone]

Cheers Jokar and Pip,

My BCO will accept the sprinkler system as long as the supply is reliable. Which to me makes a lot of sense as this is actually almost affordable for a number of homes.  So if one BCO will accept this standard...

My LA inspecting officer will accept the lifts as is with out the seperate power supply, subject to a stringent procedure.  I've only come across ONE home in the last nine years where the residents could walk out of the premises.  Most are registered as Residentential, but are actually Nursing/EMI.  And nobody is willing to increase staffing levels.

I know it's down to the RP, but the owner's are generally happy to soldier on as is, leaving the RP high and dry.

[ian gough]

Pip: A BS 9251: 2005 residential/domestic fire sprinkler system IS a life safety system.

Redone: A fire sprinkler system installed by a LPC listed contractor WILL have a reliable water supply in accordance with the BS. The problem is that BCOs and Fire Officers are too often accepting anyone (and sometimes anything) when it comes to sprinkler installations in care homes.

[Pip]

Pip: A BS 9251: 2005 residential/domestic fire sprinkler system IS a life safety system.

Redone: A fire sprinkler system installed by a LPC listed contractor WILL have a reliable water supply in accordance with the BS. The problem is that BCOs and Fire Officers are too often accepting anyone (and sometimes anything) when it comes to sprinkler installations in care homes.

sorry, made the fatal mistake of an assumption-thinking only one supply did not equal a life safety system!

[Pip]

So why does a 5306 system need two water supplies for it to be 'life safety', but a 9521 system does not?

Relaxation for 5306 or 9521 system- yes I would like to see some -but there is a lack of national guidance- so yes some BCO's will accept, and possibly some FSO as well.

[Redone]

My BCO agree's that any sprinkler system with an adequate reliable water supply is superior to no sprinklers at all.

[Pip]

My BCO agree's that any sprinkler system with an adequate reliable water supply is superior to no sprinklers at all.

Which features would he relax?

[Redone]

I don't honestly know Pip, just that a domestic system would be acceptable rather than no system at all.

But the emphasis was on a guaranteed/protected water supply.

[novascot]

In Scotland all new Res Care premises must be fitted with Sprinklers.
The FRA will depend upon the construction of the building. If the evacuation plan is for horizontal phased evacuation and the staff can move the 7-8 residents from one zone to another in a reasonable time, should this not be acceptable? Remember you are only evacuating the affected zone first of all.

If the home is fitted with a reasonable AFD system L1/L2 then action by staff will be close to discovery and alarm giving them a chance to fight the fire in its early stages. (If safe to do so.)

[Pip]

The problem at the moment is, because there is no central advice on what would be acceptable relaxations to the B.Regs/ acceptable as a compensatory feature, different decisions are being made at a local level by Building Control authorities etc.
Therefore we are finding lots of inconsistencies.I would like to see some relaxations, as it could help promote sprinklers if there could be some offsetting of the costs.Until there is some central guidance it means many BCO's/FS0's will, although they may have sympathy, will not be able to endorse relaxations because they will not have the authority to do so, as their local policies and procedures will not allow it.

[ian gough]

Pip: good question re 'life safety systems' when talking about fire sprinklers.
There is a problem (that the fire sprinkler industry recognise) in that because whenever people consider sprinklers for other than property protection i.e. life safety, there's an assumption that this means a 'life safety system'  - which is not the case.
Life Safety Sprinkler Systems were originally designed for large risks such as shopping centres, where they had to be able to operate at all times and could not be totally off for any reason.
Same words but different meanings! This is something that BAFSA wish to clear up with BSi asap - especially in view of the increased use of sprinklers in accordance with building standards (Scottish Tech Standards and new ADB 2006).

[Pip]

Pip: good question re 'life safety systems' when talking about fire sprinklers.
There is a problem (that the fire sprinkler industry recognise) in that because whenever people consider sprinklers for other than property protection i.e. life safety, there's an assumption that this means a 'life safety system'  - which is not the case.
Life Safety Sprinkler Systems were originally designed for large risks such as shopping centres, where they had to be able to operate at all times and could not be totally off for any reason.
Same words but different meanings! This is something that BAFSA wish to clear up with BSi asap - especially in view of the increased use of sprinklers in accordance with building standards (Scottish Tech Standards and new ADB 2006).

Exactly, so what standard of system should we accept before we look at relaxing other standards ie doors with S/C instead of Fire Doors etc.I must admit i feel a little uneasy with relaxing standards on anything less than a 5306 life safety system but I am open to being convinced otherwise.I know any sprinkler system is better than no system, but it has to be reliable if you are going to relax physical fire protection.In the case of shopping centres they are there to ensure the primary escape route is kept available for escape, so features a back up water supply.

[ian gough]

Pip: BS 9251: 2005 for residential care homes. That is what it says on the packet! As per ADB and Scottish Tech Standards. But I would add that a 'third party' accredited contractor gives you a good degree of confidence that it's designed abnd installed properly (see, soon to be up and running, LPS 1301 scheme).