Should green break glass door overides be 'signed'???

[messy]

Should green break glass door overides be signed and if so under what guidance?

It seems bizzare that when so many premises are installed with exit signs indicating the front door of a premise with only one escape route, signs showing the location of big red hosereels and/or exintinguishers (which are in fact bigger than the sign) and other perhaps superfluous signage, the green box often sits alone on the wall.

Yes I accept that any mag lock should operate with the AFD, but if it doesn't, shouldn't there be clear signage as to the location and use of the green override boxes, especialy if the publc/visitors would be expected to use them?

[Richard Earl]

hi messy

i would advise all my clients who have green boxs to sign them
in my mind they are a way of opening a fire door etc the signs are smaller than the extinguishers and if photo lum can be seen in darkness

i have companies that fit over sized signage ( just to get more money from clients) i will email you our price for the signs you are asking about

[Brian Catton]

Yes Messey they should be signed. Safety signs and signals regs 1996. I recently conducted a fire drill and the person I asked to sound the alarm operated a green box and was surprised when the alarm did not sound.

[Jim Creak]

BS 5499 part 5 has a Standardised safety sign( graphical symbol)  for the location and identification of an emergency call point (as opposed to a fire alarm call point) which can be used should the risk assessment deem that it is appropriate. Supplementary text can be used to aid instruction and familiarity. The objective of a safety sign is to satisfy one or more of the following. identify,locate,inform,instruct or educate.. The more of these objectives the sign achieves the more it assists the responsible person to fulfill his obligation and duties under the Management of Health and Safety and Regulatory Reform Fire Safety Order.

[John Webb]

I spotted this week that my nearest big supermarket has installed magnetic hold plates on all the fire exit doors, each exit having an unsigned 'Green Box' next to it. But they have retained the panic bars as well, which means that there are now two things to do to get through the exit, but only the panic bars are labelled!

This seems to me to be contrary to AD 'B' which says there should only be one method of operation and similar advice in the RR(FS)O guides.

Any comments?

[kurnal]

If the magnetic door locks release on operation of the fire alarm system then there will be only one action required to open the door- the panic bar. But persons may need to evacuate the building for reasons other than fire- bomb scares, gas leaks etc. In such a case the fire alarm would not be sounding - and the rule of one mechanism one action only applies to opening a fire exit to escape from fire. At least thats how I see it.

[John Webb]

kurnal - thanks for your comments.  All the exits also have FA BGUs of course, installed when the building opened about 15 years ago, but these are also unsigned as are the 'Green Boxes'. I assume (hope!) that the locks are linked to the FA system. All the doors have had security alarms on them for some years also. I hope too that there is a means of releasing all exit doors for use for the non-fire emergencies you mention.

What concerns me is that without signage a parent with a young family who sees a fire may try and get out of the building with the youngsters without attempting to raise the alarm and finds they cannot do so. I have noticed from past experiences that even in an obvious emergency there is still reluctance by members of the public (or even staff) to operate BGUs.

And if faced with a choice of BGUs are they going to get even more confused and reluctant to raise an alarm and so get out?

It does seem to me that some additional signage to encourage sounding of the FA (and so releasing the lock on the exit doors) is required in this situation.

[David Rooney]

If a green break glass has "DOOR RELEASE" written across it, and its next to a door, why do we need yet another sign?

I have clients that are

a; running out of wall space for all the signs they should have on display at every exit etc, and
b; if i had to read all the signs to find the one that was relevant to my particular emergency situation I would probably be dead before I found it.

Or is it just me..........?? !!

[kurnal]

You are right about reluctance John. On a recent unannounced evacuation exercise I witnessed most employees insisted on walking to the normal entrance doors - about 200m rather than use the exits which were fitted with redlam bolts. When I asked why they said they didnt want to break the tube in case it was a false alarm- that would be a waste.

And it is a concern that if there is a choice of red and green boxes someone may operate the green in a fire situation and not the red. I dont have an answer for that one though. There may be good reasons for people to need to open the door without operating the fire alarm so I cant see that you can do away with either box.

Theres loads of work been done on sign recognition but most people dont notice them most of the time.

Bit like cyclists on the road. research has shown that 90% of  motorists overtake cyclists and have no recollection of having done so a few seconds later. but naked cyclists were observed and remembered by 100%. I believe people wont look for signs until they feel  personally threatened by the fire situation and then too many signs may lead to confusion.

[Mr. P]

Even in the best of circumstances, when the building users are all very well trained and to some extent supposedly responsible (not in the legal RP sense), some will undoubtedly always use their normal entry route for exit.  I witnessed in a police station, a constable walk past the 'fire' to reception and back to his office.  Back to reception again to try opening the security doors and eventually out through the main door hesitating to use either the door release or fire alarm BG.  Time taken to raise alarm 8 minutes.  On alarm sounding, others appearing, asking ,what's going on!

Many feathers were ruffled that day.  But worst of all, they tried making excuses, blaming others who were not even present.

[John Webb]

Thanks for comments, everyone. Problem I can see is that both Green and Red BGUs only have relatively small writing on them - one exit for example is four 850mm doors wide with the box right over to one side of the doors - if you are at the door furthest away from it it is not clear what the function of this distant green box is (unless you know about these things!).

I do feel there is a need for a notice along the lines of 'Sound (or operate?) fire alarm to release doors' in addition to the existing 'Push Bars to open'. What are peoples' thoughts on this?

[messy]

Surely common sense should prevail when installing FS signing:

I would hope that 90% of the public would recognise a red BGU and know what it's for. Does it need a sign?

Most would recognise an extinguisher, but many are also signed.

I also have seen wall mounted hosereels signed as if people wouldn't recognise them!!

But how many away from those of us 'in the game' would know what a green BGU is provided for - even if they pass it every day. Surely by having a clear sign, this acts passively everyday as a tool for education, as well as 'actively' suring an emergency.

Signing is important, but over signing is counter productive

[John Webb]

Messy,
I agree oversigning is counter-productive. My thoughts are that extinguishers and hosereels really only need signing if they are not immediately obvious; for example a shop floor with stands and displays, or open-plan offices with cupboards or workshops with machine tools, all of which restrict vision across the space to where the extinguishers etc. may be. Or Hosereels tucked away in in those smart little cupboards!

The fire exit problem I've mentioned above is a complex one. Clearly the doors have been fitted with the plates to improve security and no doubt the management is not anxious to make too great a display of how to open the doors! Interestingly both types of BGU are fitted with the 'lift-up' transparent cover to deter operation, which I'd forgotten to mention before.

But it still concerns me that it is not clear to to the ordinary member of the public what to do in case of a fire in this particular instance.

[Big A]

You are right about reluctance John. On a recent unannounced evacuation exercise I witnessed most employees insisted on walking to the normal entrance doors - about 200m rather than use the exits which were fitted with redlam bolts. When I asked why they said they didnt want to break the tube in case it was a false alarm- that would be a waste.

I received a phone call one day a few years ago from a secretary on the top (7th) floor of a building that I was dealing with. The next three floors down from her were in use as a hotel. The hotel had fitted doors on one of the staircases for security purposes that were fitted with handles in break glass (with notices to that effect). The lady in question wanted advice as the fire alarm was sounding and she had walked down several flights of stairs (to the fourth floor), arrived at this door and decided that she shouldn't go through it. She had then walked back up to the 7th floor and phoned me.

[AnthonyB]

If a green break glass has "DOOR RELEASE" written across it, and its next to a door, why do we need yet another sign?

I have clients that are

a; running out of wall space for all the signs they should have on display at every exit etc, and
b; if i had to read all the signs to find the one that was relevant to my particular emergency situation I would probably be dead before I found it.

Or is it just me..........?? !!

Because DOOR RELEASE is text only! No pictogram!

However new fire and escape door break glasses are increasingly using a symbol in place of the words FIRE etc so that might be one sign less.

To avoid proliferation of signs I always advise combination Fire Action/break glass unit signs - smaller and neater than an action sign and a seperate giant break glass sign