Residential Care Homes

[Geoff]

Hi folks daft question time again!

Other than in the RRO guidance for residential care premises is there a standard or other guidance which states that self-closing devices are to be fitted to all fire doors (obviously not for cupboards and the like) and suitable hold open devices that can be fitted (particularly for bedroom doors)?

Basically I've just come across a 6 month old residential care home which only has self closers fitted to bedroom doors in a dead end condition (other than the corridor and storey exit doors).  As all corridors that serve bedrooms are supposed to be protected I believe that the bedroom doors should have them fitted as well!  The hold open devices is the old chestnut about residents being able to leave their doors open at night, etc.

The place is still in its defect period and has had a very poor CSCI inspection report.  One of the requirements from the report was sorting out of this thing about self-closers and hold open devices for bedroom doors.  The architect is saying it is fully complaint so before I go into bat any advice would be most appreciated.

[Pip]

I think the bedroom doors in all protected corridoors should have some form of self closing device, in a new build, under the current ,and new, approved document B.
However,In my local area, a document was produced ( sometime in the mid 90's)in consortium with all the county building control authorities, social services and Fire and rescue service in relation to the 1984 draft (Green) guide to fire precautions in existing residential care homes, and within this document it was aceptable to have 'protected areas' of max 12 beds, that if satisfied certain criteria, could ommit the self closers on the doors.may be the architect was thinking of this standard.But not to my knowledge in a new build-has this been missed by the BCO and the FSO inspecting on behalf of CSCI?-or have I got it wrong :-(

[Geoff]

The architect is telling me that it was done under the 2000 version of ADB (which I find a little disconcerting as this is  not the only thing wrong) but it was also a design and build contract without a competent person on our side giving any scrutiny.  

You certainly haven't got it wrong, I do think that it was missed by the BCO and FSO, but it certainly hasn't been missed by CSCI the inspector was not very impressed.

I've got two others beign built under a PFI deal at the moment with the same architect and I want to get something a bit more definitive so I can metaphorically shove it where the sun doesn't shine and sort him out.  I loathe snotty architects! LOL!

Anyway if anyone can help I will be forever grateful! Well until the next question anyway!:D

[PhilB]

HTM 84 could be used as a way of meeting the functional requirements of the Building Regs as could the Institute of Building Control Guide to Rec Care which is based on HTM84.

Problem is there are two versions of HTM84, one from Scotland one from Northern Ireland and they make different requirements for bedroom doors. Soctland requires free swing, Northern Ireland does not require self-closers on bedrooms.

I would point out that these guides were written prior to Rosepark. Good luck old boy!!

[wee brian]

The DOE issued a determination under the Building Regs - this allowed the omission of closers in new care homes (subject to certain provisios). The New ADB essentially reverses this decision.

Free swing closers werent a viable option then (nor, I suppose, had we had Rose park)

[Pip]

geof-whatever the architect says,compliance with the building regs does not necerssarily mean that the building complies with the FS.order.There is no excuse in a new build not to fit a swing free/sc/hold open device.I suspect when the final outcome of Rose park and any more reccommendations will re affirm that.

[Pip]

The DOE issued a determination under the Building Regs - this allowed the omission of closers in new care homes (subject to certain provisios). The New ADB essentially reverses this decision.

Free swing closers werent a viable option then (nor, I suppose, had we had Rose park)

wee brian, can you give me a reference to that determination please.

[Geoff]

I was just about to ask for that myself.

[Pip]

http://www.communities.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1504290

I found this appeal-but it was dismissed-but it did leave the door open for them to be considered to be excluded in other circumstances

[Geoff]

Pip, Thanks for that, its beginning to get a little frustrating! Lol!  Wonder if this sort of thing will ever be simple?

[Pip]

Pip, Thanks for that, its beginning to get a little frustrating! Lol!  Wonder if this sort of thing will ever be simple?

simple-never!

I would suggest that the standard to apply would be with a form of closing device-and I would enforce on that basis unless you or a beak could pursuade me different.What is your relationship to the architect?-client,advisor to client or enforcing officer?

[Geoff]

I am the client (or my association is) and I'm the fire safety adviser for my sins.  Been here 6 months and our development section have only just realised I exist despite being in the next room to them. LOL! It seems to be typical with Housing Associations they get all these developments planned, generally use design and build contracts or modular construction, and believe everything told to them by the builders and architects.  They finally got a reasonable surveyor in to act as client liaison but I'm still having to tell him what is needed.  And to think I volunteered for this job!

Oops sorry for the rant!

[Pip]

Well, if I was in your shoes I would probably be asking the BCO and FSO on what grounds they allowed the ommission- especially the Fire Authority as they have to justify why they might not come back at a later date (ie a different officer) and enforce a requirement to fit some form of self closing device.I would be asking the Architect on what standard he designed the home on and why he thought he could ommit the S/C.If you were not happy with the answers you could look at the client's design brief to see if there are any contractual requirements in the design-ie to satisfy B.regs,fire safety order and CSCI requirements.

[Geoff]

That is exactly the tack that I intend to take, i just wanted to see if there was something out there that I wasn't aware of; which seems to be the case after Brians post.  Hopefully he will give a little more info on that later!

Many thanks for the advice Pip and forth to battle I go!!!!!!

[Pip]

yes, I hope wee brian comes up with that.If the proviso's that he alludes to include lots of'management' requirements-I wonder if the architect discussed them with the client?