Bespoke fire doors

[Dehavilland]

How can we ensure that a bespoke fire door meets BS476 Pt22?  Has anyone any experience of having fire doors made to fit existing frames?  The application is a listed building where existing doors are unsuitable for upgrade.  Any views?

[kurnal]

The first step is to achieve an understanding with the owner, the listed  building officer, the BCO and Fire officer as to the actual standard of fire resistance required.
If you can achieve an agreement to carry out a sympathetic upgrade to improve the existing doors as far as reasonably practicable towards a half hour standard using good practice and technology  then you are on your way.

I do have a successful case study in a historic mill where we achieved just this and would be happy to share the details with you by email.

[Dehavilland]

Thanks.  The Fire Officer has strongly advised against upgrading.  As far as I am aware there has been no involvement from the listed buildings officer as it's a Grade 2 listing.  The owners have found a joiner who will make doors to size and has told them that although the materials (?) meet BS476 Pt22 there is no guarantee that the finished doors will because they are not standard.  Sounds like a load of old sales flannel to me, but having no experience of having fire doors made I don't know.  So my question is really about how non-standard doors can be manufactured to meet BS 476 Pt22.  I understand how the BS testing system works, but how can it be applied to a bespoke product?

[kurnal]

It cant. Your doors will have no certification as such. But is it any different to so many other buildings in which an off the shelf fire door is fitted into an existing frame?
If certification is an absolute  requirement you need a certified doorset. But there may be other risk control measures you could put in place to offset a shortcoming in door spec on a risk assessment approach.

If its only a grade 2 listed then door blanks are available as a starting point that can be dressed and trimmed to look something like.

[kurnal]

Just to add a little more by way of explanation.
The BS476 test is just that- its a standard test of a foor assembly on the face of a gas furnace that allows door designs to be compared against a standard. The test in no way replicates a real fire- these are all totally variable and may place a door under much greater or much less fire loading dependent on the circumstances.

Many door manufacturers and manufacturers of intumescent products have submitted a whole range of door designs for test over the years and organisations such as BMTrada have produced specifications of door designs and upgrade techniques that have been found to pass the test. Your joiner is proposing to replicate one of these designs I guess. Every detail has to be carefully followed and some companies will then issue a copy of their test certificate that was granted for their door when it was tested.
Its far from a  guarantee.
The rate at which timber chars is fairly predictable, its how the door may warp under the effect of the heat that is most likely to cause a failure around the perimeter.

Take a look at the ASDMA website www.asdma.com

[Dehavilland]

OK.  Just as I thought. Good point about the existing frame.  Back to the fire officer.

Many thanks

[alanfcox]

Upgrading fire doors, frames and hardware is without doubt a minefield and in my experience the Fire Officer is not usually the best person to ask, neither is the local carpenter or builder. Some years ago I made "The Fire Door Educational Package" and this clearly highlighted all the pitfalls of both upgrading and purchasing new doorsets. My advice is to contact a specialist that either knows the doors or has enough knowledge to guide you in the right direction - beware though there are a lot of "experts" out there and making the right choice is extremely important if you don't want to be given the wrong information.

[Tom Sutton]

Try http://www.trada.co.uk/news/view/7DB9F2A2-DF1B-4EBD-A266-99A92DC9C477/Fire_resisting_doorsets_by_upgrading_Revised_Wood_Information_Sheet it may be worth puchasing although it is not exactly what you want. Also try http://www.intfire.com/ and look in the library

[jokar]

Do you need to upgarde?  There may be other solutions to this so speak to the represenattaive from English Heritage who will be in a much better position to give advice.  There are many listed buildings with doors that do not meet current or previous BS test standards.  You must remember that all doos will restrict the spread of fire and smke it is just that some are tested and some do it for longer than others.  The provison of AFD has been utilised on many occasions as a compensatory feature for doors.

[wee brian]

For a one off door, you could ask for an assessment. Most test Labs offer this as a service as does Auntie Lynne I think.

Depends how sniffy you want to be and what the fire risk is. If its just a house then a big thick door is probably OK. I wouldnt be so happy in a theatre though.

[Harry Dewick-Eisele]

If the doors are traditional panelled doors, they can be upgraded to FD30 by a combination of intumescent coatings available as sets. You can even get these sets in clear if you want to preserve the look of the original door.
For very thin fields in panelled doors you need to fit a intumescent sheets underneath the coating. These sheets are available in most veneers and finishes.
The sets have been tested in compliance with BS476 to meet part B of Building regulations by NEAMAS test centres.

Please note that you still require all the other features of a fire door (intumescent smoke and fire seals, intumescent sheet underneath the hinges, handle and door closer as well as a door closer, fire rated hinges and handle)

[Ken Taylor]

With the historic Grade 1 listed buildings with which I have been involved, there has been a host of doors or various antiquity generally of substantial hardwood (eg oak) onto at least 25mm stops but upgraded where necessary in consultation with English Heritage - replacement being unacceptable. Additional substantial bespoke non-standard doors have been made to the satisfaction of all parties but without certification. Listed buildings of this nature need creative thinking based upon risk assessment in many ways as text-book, BS and Approved document approaches are just not realistic.

[Auntie LIn]

Why not try asking members of the Architectural and Specialist Door Manufacturers Association to make you one?   Bespoke doors are their babies.   Alternatively, if you want to contact me privately and send me a few details I'll have a quick look at it and see if I can give you any advice.