What type of Fire system

[pdenni]

Hi there

Can any one please tell me the regulations regarding having Optical smoke alarms and call points working from an Intruder alarm system run in standard alarm cable in a public hall, as i have just come across this been done as new works and am confused as i would have thought it should be done in fp with a stand alone panel.

[Allen Higginson]

It's certainly not to 5839: Part 1 anyway!!

[Chris Houston]

As buzzard says, such a system is completely at odds with the recommendations of the relevant standard.  If it is considered necessary to have fire detection, the system should be designed and installed to British Standard 5839 and this system clearly hasn't been.

[pdenni]

Thanks for the response

i find the regs slightly confusing as i understand about a standard having to exist but in which case why do Intruder alarm systems allow the inclusion of fire detection and where exactly is it written that you can or can not use this type of arrangement in favour for a reg compliant system.
Anyones help will be greatly accepted

[Allen Higginson]

i really am treading in unknown territory but I can only assume that the fire equipment that operates on intruder systems are for the domestic market.I know that the brigade like a nice panel with proper zones and maps etc.
There are so many ways that the intruder system doesn't meet 5839 it wouldn't be worth starting!
I'm gonna stick my neck out a little further however - can't intruder systems be used in certain cases for Part 6 (or was that the old regs??) - it's not an area that I really get into so I'll bow without arguement on it!

[Chris Houston]

There is no legal requirement to comply with British Standard, but I wouldn't want to stand in front of a judge or coroner and explain why I chose not to.

However, imagine the situation where fire detection was not "required" but adding in some detectors to an intruder alarm system was considered a good, low cost, bonus.  Then this would considered by most to be better than nothing at all.

However the problems that this could cause could get quite confusing.  I assume there must be at least a manual fire alarm system.  But I wonder if the smoke detectors going off lead to the fire alarm system sounding?   I wonder if when the intruder alarm system detects a fire and sets its alarms off, if people then don't bother raising the fire alarm, does this prevent a signal going to the fire service, does the alarm stop as soon as the cables burn through, did everyone hear the alarm (is the volume high enough in all places as a fire alarm system must, does it cut the power to the disco speakers in the town hall at the time), do they stop evacuating as soon as the alarm stops.  There are many things that could go wrong.  I think some will argue that some smoke detection is better than nothing and some that will argue that all fire detection systems in buildings like this should comply with the British Standard.

[pdenni]

Thanks for your comments, i think i would have installed the fire system to current regs but trying to persuade the customer that their current newly installed arrangement should be ripped out and installed to regs is unlikely, but with the changes to fire certification shouldn't this system have been certified and approved by the relevent peoples?

[Chris Houston]

Fire certificates are not issues in the UK anymore.  The obligation is on the person in control of the premises to comply with the law.  If the fire alarm system had been installed as per the British Standard, it would be normal for a certificate to have been given, but as it is not, then one won't have been.

The "relevant people" are those in charge of the premises, it is their responsibility to get things right.

[John Webb]

The 'Guide' to large places of public assembly in Part 2, Section 2, does not specifically state that an alarm system must be to BS5839 part 1. But it makes a number of references to this BS 'for further information' so it is rather implied that this is the appropriate standard to use.

[AnthonyB]

Sounds like a varient of a pt 6 system which some manufacturers claim is suitable after risk assessment for small premises not exceeding the area of one zone, except using an intuder system as the control panel instead of a master callpoint/mini panel. A key question is are the detectors and call points pt 6 type ones i.e that usually have an integral sounder?  If so there is a chance that based on the premises size, usage layout and risk it might be justifiable by risk assessment as there are several commercial premises using part 6 systems of smoke alarms and call point alarms with normal cabled that have been accepted by all relevant parties.

Although as a place of assembly with a higher risk user profile the extra protection & robustness of a Pt1 system may be preferred, especially if of any appreciable size orcomplex layout

[Graeme]

i really am treading in unknown territory but I can only assume that the fire equipment that operates on intruder systems are for the domestic market.I know that the brigade like a nice panel with proper zones and maps etc.
There are so many ways that the intruder system doesn't meet 5839 it wouldn't be worth starting!
I'm gonna stick my neck out a little further however - can't intruder systems be used in certain cases for Part 6 (or was that the old regs??) - it's not an area that I really get into so I'll bow without arguement on it!

Part 6 Grade C

but the intruder system would have to have a minimum of 72 hours stand by.

if that was not possible it could be regarded as Grade E

[pdenni]

hi everyone


carrying on this subject i have made some enquiries and found out that this installed system will be expanded and is basically being installed as per a stand alone system but working off of an intruder panel, run in alarm cable with callpoints and in the region of 10+smoke detectors, with this in mind is anyone of the opinion this must now conform to bs5839 due to the fact the building in question is two storey has kitchen facilities and has a suspended ceiling above which is plant equipment (air-con units) and is voided to about 8-10feet and is open to the general public.Any new views will be gratefully recieved

[Graeme]

BS 5839-1 system required.

My own personal opinion is to always keep fire and intruder systems seperate.

[Wiz]

Quite simply the responsible person should get a qualified person to carry out a proper fire risk assessment which will include the fire detection and alarm system. It is not the installer's responsibility to decide or recommend a system category and type.

You describe this building as a public hall, with more than one storey and having kitchen facilities. I'm pretty sure that anyone carrying out a risk-assessment in this building would probably ask for nothing less than a BS5839 Part 1 system.

The system using smoke detectors connected to an intruder alarm has quite rightly previously been described as the sort of thing you would have in a domestic situation where a few smoke detectors added to your intruder alarm system just provide an enhancement and not fulfill a need.

I also can't see the building's insurance company agreeing that fire detectors connected to an intruder panel are sufficient as a suitable system.

[kurnal]

Quite right Wiz. Have seen this systems used to provide some property protection whilst premises are unoccupied to take advantage of the burglar alarms monitored link to a call centre.
The evacuation plan for a public hall will almost certainly require something more sophisticated than linked smoke detectors, depending on the way it is used of course.