Heat or Smoke detection in hotels?

[Midland Retty]

I cannot believe that so many of you have detectors all over your houses but if it makes you feel safe carry on.

i did have a domestic detector in my loo but I found that the heavy methane vapours kept setting it off to the extent that I was starting to be charged by the fire Service for false alarms / good intent.

Sorry! Anyway getting back to your discussion I personally think this is a cracking debate Phil has started. I have come across different Fire Authorties, consultants and risk assessors all having different views on this mater.

I must admit personally I would prefer to see smoke detection installed in the bedrooms - i recognise it would only protect the person in the room, where as a heat detector would still warn everybody before the escape routes became untenable, it wouldnt be quick enough to try and save the resident in the room of origin.

I accept that half the time hotel guests are probably too drunk to hear the alarms - a classic case of "Beer ears " i think they call it.

But equally so, I think whilst UwFS can be a problem we need to try and rouse the person in the room of origin - smoke is the biggest killer and they may never wake up otherwise.

[CivvyFSO]

SD also buys all the other drunk/sleeping people more time. It's been identified that these people are hard to wake/move already so surely the more time we can buy them the better?

[PhilB]

SD also buys all the other drunk/sleeping people more time. It's been identified that these people are hard to wake/move already so surely the more time we can buy them the better?

Yes Civvy but a heat detector will do that.

Think about the type of fire and speed of development in a hotel bedroom. What will start a fire?... the most likely cause in my opinion would be an electrical fault. I would suggest a lot of smoke would be generated and strange smells and noises that would rouse an occupant unless he was completey zonked out through alcohol.

As I said earlier if he is zonked out to that extent neither heat or smoke detection will wake him on time.

But a heat detector will warn all others before the escape route is compromised.

[CivvyFSO]

SD will warn them quicker though...

If there's no chance of the smoke overcoming the person before the HD is activated or the smell etc actually rouses them then I would have to try agree with you.

Otherwise I am sprinklering it, lobbying every room, external escape stair to every room, and a RA done for every room by one of you £700 per half a day consultants. SO THERE.

I AM THE LAW!!!!!

Oops. Time to settle down. Is there a darkened room around here somewhere?

If so, is it detected?

[jokar]

Unfortunately not.  The law is the judiciary who may have something to say on the matter and after all the onus of responsibility is on the RP not anyone else.  There seems to be a bit of an assumption here that SD works like s domestic smoke alarm and sounds imediately.  Not true, do some testing and work out the times.  A smoke detector may go of in a room and provide warning to others and the drunk may still not wake up.

[Midland Retty]

You are right Jokar... commericial AFD can in some cases be slower to react than domestic type detection

However it still has to be argued that it is much quicker than Heat Detection.

Whilst you are right a heavy sleeper or someone under the influence of alcohol may never wake up even if Smoke Detection is employed it still has to be better that HD for all concerned.

As I stated before and PhilB is absolutely right on this the primary purpose of detection is to protect MOE not the person in the room.

But it begs the question these days with the RRO so open to interpretation and a greater onus on Competenmt persons to protect relevant persons whether or not changing heat to smoke would prove to a judge everything practicable was done to protect everyone in the hotel including yer slightly merry guest in the room of fire origin.

[Pip]

No Civvy leave it there and put one in your toilet as well I bet Pip has!! I know you were jesting but sprinklers are definately the best option.

If the person is in such a deep sleep or so drunk that smoke won't wake them then they probably won't awaken anyway no matter how many gongs, bells and whistles are used.

I only put detectors in my high risk bathrooms!:-)

[PhilB]

Ah that's better Pip...bathrooms scary biscuits!!!

[Pip]

In regards to reduction of AFD's,local Fire Authority has hit Government reduction target 2 half years ahead of schedule.Its a new world out there now, and whatever the reasons for HD in hotel bedrooms before,they are not viewed the same by many now.Many cannot agree that it is reasonable to sacrifice one person, where there are other arrangements and modern equipment available.I am sure that eventually it will be tested in court, and fire authorities will adjust their policies to suit.
Lots of people I know have sd in their own homes beyond the downstairs landing,they are v. cheap nowadays, and when fitted by the local FS on home risk assessments they are put in landings and bedrooms,with 10 yr batteries.SD will not be the answer to everything,but it will be a big improvement and save lives.

[AnthonyB]

I cannot believe that so many of you have detectors all over your houses but if it makes you feel safe carry on.

Why? Most deaths are in the home, if ever you wanted as much detection as possible its in houses.

Personally I would like to be woken before my escape route is beginning to be smoke logged, so rooms with an ignition risk onto the landings are covered, also I like my house and belongings so also want an early warning for property protection.

A detector in my bedroom is to save me from my smouldering bedroom TV and mainly to act as a sounder so i will wake up rather than rely on being roused by a landing head through a closed solid door.

Needless to say they are all linked - otherwise this defeats the object of having so many.

Premier Travel Inns on the whole use smoke heads to rooms, usually near the door or above it on the wall, with a room sounder. They have clear signage to shut the bathroom door whilst showering to prevent false alarms from steam. The only heat's I've seen in this chains rooms are in designated smokers bedrooms or very old premises with the original fittings

[PhilB]

I cannot believe that so many of you have detectors all over your houses but if it makes you feel safe carry on.

Why? Most deaths are in the home, if ever you wanted as much detection as possible its in houses.

Yes I am aware that most deaths occur in the home, however most house fires do not start in the bedroom.

By all means put detection in every room if you can afford it but there is little point.

Childrens bedrooms, good idea due to risk of fire play and lots of electrical gadgets. Unless you use sleeping pills or consume vast amounts of alcohol you would most likely be awoken by the smoldering TV in your bedroom.

A detector on each landing would suffice in my opinion but it is your risk assessment, if it makes you feel safe spend away!

[Pip]

I cannot believe that so many of you have detectors all over your houses but if it makes you feel safe carry on.

Why? Most deaths are in the home, if ever you wanted as much detection as possible its in houses.

Yes I am aware that most deaths occur in the home, however most house fires do not start in the bedroom.

By all means put detection in every room if you can afford it but there is little point.

Childrens bedrooms, good idea due to risk of fire play and lots of electrical gadgets. Unless you use sleeping pills or consume vast amounts of alcohol you would most likely be awoken by the smoldering TV in your bedroom.

A detector on each landing would suffice in my opinion but it is your risk assessment, if it makes you feel safe spend away!

My view may be coloured,but the site of dead children in bedrooms is not one I want to see again, and if that means I have sd in my bedroom to improve my chances of waking up beyond'most likeley' to make sure I get my young kids out of the house,then I am more than happy to spend that extra money.A lot of people spend more money on fags a week than the cost of sd in the home.

[PhilB]

My view may be coloured,but the site of dead children in bedrooms is not one I want to see again, and if that means I have sd in my bedroom to improve my chances of waking up beyond'most likeley' to make sure I get my young kids out of the house,then I am more than happy to spend that extra money.A lot of people spend more money on fags a week than the cost of sd in the home.

Yes I think many of us have been there Pip I'm not trying to kill all the children honest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just don't see the point in wasting money.

I hope you are also going to install domestic sprinklers because it is highly likely that if you would not be woken by your smoldering telly you would also not be woken by your smoke detector.

[Pip]

My view may be coloured,but the site of dead children in bedrooms is not one I want to see again, and if that means I have sd in my bedroom to improve my chances of waking up beyond'most likeley' to make sure I get my young kids out of the house,then I am more than happy to spend that extra money.A lot of people spend more money on fags a week than the cost of sd in the home.

Yes I think many of us have been there Pip I'm not trying to kill all the children honest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just don't see the point in wasting money.

I hope you are also going to install domestic sprinklers because it is highly likely that if you would not be woken by your smoldering telly you would also not be woken by your smoke detector.

you may be right,but I am willing to spend a fiver in case you are not.

[Midland Retty]

Fors and against when talking about residential smoke detection... but if you think about it logically unless you install interlinked smoke detection stand alone units may not help

Scenario

You have single point detectors everywhere - great...

Fire starts in ground floor lounge... detector in lounge activates but you cant hear it as doors are closed and you are fast asleep.

Smoke breaks through into hallway and landing - landing detector activates - this is the time you want to be woken before your landing is lost to smoke. By the time the detector goes off in your bedroom you may not be able to get into the landing to go and rescue a child in a adjacent room.

So in reality ok I take the point that a fire starting in a child's bedroom next door to yours you might be able to hear the detctor go off in their room but im an on call fireman and have the loudest possible alerrter imaginable and at times i can sleep through it - leaving my partner frantically having to slap me round the face to wake me.