Author Topic: Heat or Smoke detection in hotels?  (Read 43366 times)

Offline Pip

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Heat or Smoke detection in hotels?
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2007, 03:55:55 PM »
Quote from: Midland Retty
Fors and against when talking about residential smoke detection... but if you think about it logcally unless you install interlinked smoke detection stand alon units may not help

Scenario

You have single point detectors everywhere - great...

Fire starts in ground floor lounge... detector in lounge activates but you cant hear it as doors are closed and you are fast asleep.

Smoke breaks through into hallway and landing - landing detector activates - this is the time you want to be woken before your landing is lost to smoke. By the time the detector goes off in your bedroom you may not be able to get into the landing to go and rescue a child in a adjacent room.

So in reality ok I take the point that a fire starting in a child's bedroom next door to yours you might be able to hear the detctor go off in their room but im an on call fireman and have the loudest possible alerrter imaginable and at times i can sleep through it - leaving my partner frantically having to slap me round the face to wake me.
did i forget to mention that they were linked(cue outrage from Phil due to cost of bell wire:-) )

Unfortunateley I wake quite easily-and I always hear my alerter .My wife often slaps me round the face but its never been to wake me,normally to tell me to go to sleep.

Midland Retty

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Heat or Smoke detection in hotels?
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2007, 08:40:31 AM »
Most contraversial Pip - Mr Phil won't like that!

Do you think he is Scottish perhaps? He seems very tight with the purse strings!

Offline saddlers

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Heat or Smoke detection in hotels?
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2007, 12:49:18 PM »
Quote from: Pip
Fire service recommends sd in bedrooms-and fits them,on home risk assessments,why should the ethos be different in a hotel bedroom?
Because if I accidentally set my smoke detector off in my house at 3 am it does not result in 400 people having to evacuate to the car park, and if it repeatedly occurs I am only annoying myself and maybe my better half.

Because a much higher proportion of fatalities arise from dwellings.

Because the escape routes are unlikely to be protected by FR construction in dwellings.

I always believed that the detector was to alert others who may be affected by the fire, not the person in the room of fire origin. The same as sprinklers in resi care, and hence the new guidance in ADB on multiple beds, the person in the room of fire origin will not be saved unless they are well away from the fire source.

Offline PhilB

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Heat or Smoke detection in hotels?
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2007, 12:55:25 PM »
At last Saddlers, the voice of reason.

Offline AFD

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Heat or Smoke detection in hotels?
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2007, 01:18:48 PM »
From BS 5839 pt1 2002 ( for guidance and best practice);
"" In buildings in which people sleep within rooms accessed by corridors, other than short lengths of corridor, research has shown that passage of hot fire gases through a door crack can produce smoke sufficiently dense   and cool for a corridor to become smoke-logged before adequate warning can be given by detectors in the corridor. In this case, a Category L3 system, in which detectors are installed in rooms that open onto the   escape routes, as well as within the escape routes themselves, is likely to be appropriate. The purpose of the detectors in these rooms is to give an early enough warning to occupants, other than, possibly, the person in the room of fire origin, such that they have adequate time to escape before their escape route is impassable as a result of smoke. Accordingly, within the rooms, the use of one or more of the following types of detectors   is satisfactory: heat, smoke, combustion gas or multi-sensor detectors.   In some circumstances, even a Category L3 system might not be sufficient to achieve the life safety objective.   A fire risk assessment might determine that, in addition to the protection afforded by a Category L3 system, fire detectors need to be installed in rooms or areas that would not be protected in a Category L3 system. The resulting system would then be a Category L2 system. A Category L2 system would be appropriate if a risk assessment determines that the fire risk associated with rooms other than those opening onto escape routes is unacceptable. Alternatively, there might be a need to give enhanced early warning to occupants of certain rooms, such as disabled people, of a fire in their own room. In this case, smoke or combustion gas detectors   within the rooms in question are necessary; heat detectors will not respond quickly enough.""  end quote.

Which hotel group wants any deaths in its building ? in the interest of PR !
Under DDA etc. do we have to ensure all people are safe or just the chosen few ?  All rooms covered to protect people with special needs
( many types) means flexibility in use of building, as all rooms can be used.
The problem of UWFS can be designed out with both good design and good management.

There seems to be an air of "I'll show you how cheap I can do this" attitude about this ( like other fire safety discussion points), instead of a true risk assessment that covers all areas and options, which also provides alternatives to an employer/responsible person/building owner etc. like 'if you want only to protect this ! you may need this ' but if you want to protect that plus this you will need this' !

long winded or what ?

Offline Pip

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Heat or Smoke detection in hotels?
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2007, 01:30:11 PM »
Quote from: saddlers
Quote from: Pip
Fire service recommends sd in bedrooms-and fits them,on home risk assessments,why should the ethos be different in a hotel bedroom?
Because if I accidentally set my smoke detector off in my house at 3 am it does not result in 400 people having to evacuate to the car park, and if it repeatedly occurs I am only annoying myself and maybe my better half.

Because a much higher proportion of fatalities arise from dwellings.

Because the escape routes are unlikely to be protected by FR construction in dwellings.

I always believed that the detector was to alert others who may be affected by the fire, not the person in the room of fire origin. The same as sprinklers in resi care, and hence the new guidance in ADB on multiple beds, the person in the room of fire origin will not be saved unless they are well away from the fire source.
Compliance with ADB does not necerssarily mean compliance with the RRO(FSO).I don't believe that you should write some one off because it is inconvenient to some one else.I am quite happy to follow the local policy until they tell me different.We are not having a big problem with UWFC to Hotels-and there are ways around it nowadays anyway.

Offline PhilB

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Heat or Smoke detection in hotels?
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2007, 02:49:00 PM »
Quote from: AFD
There seems to be an air of "I'll show you how cheap I can do this" attitude about this ( like other fire safety discussion points), instead of a true risk assessment that covers all areas and options, which also provides alternatives to an employer/responsible person/building owner etc. like 'if you want only to protect this ! you may need this ' but if you want to protect that plus this you will need this' !

long winded or what ?
Thanks for quote AFD it explains exactly my point, the detection is not for the person in the room because it is generally not needed for that person.

I am not trying to save money by using heat detection but trying to get efficient systems that do not generate unwanted signals.

Offline AFD

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Heat or Smoke detection in hotels?
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2007, 03:02:15 PM »
The point I am trying to make ( not very clearly , but that's an age thing ) is that the Detection is there to protect whoever or whatever the design strategy is aimed at, we cannot say in a 'blanket way' it is not there to protect occupants of a room but only others in the building.  It depends on the owners/employers/designers strategy and requirements etc. they may want/need to only protect escape routes and others or want/need to protect everyone or everything. The RRO I suggest maintains that all relevant persons must be protected, so your risk assessments and strategys must reflect that.

Offline PhilB

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Heat or Smoke detection in hotels?
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2007, 03:11:52 PM »
I totally agree AFD, what needs to be provided should be determined by risk assessment to ensure the safety of every one, including the person in the room.

My point is that sometimes smoke detection is not necssary for the protection of the person in the room. However with some occupancies smoke detection will be necessary.

And people like Pip will put it everywhere regardless of the risk anyway.

Offline saddlers

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Heat or Smoke detection in hotels?
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2007, 03:36:25 PM »
AFD I agree in some respects, that each case will need to be assessed on its merits, but when we consider the full package that generally exists in hotels. Generally fabrics and furnishings are of limited combustibility, all electrical appliances are tested on a 12 monthly cycle (unlike those in our homes), controlled heating systems which should be positioned carefully to minimise the risk of ignition, to what extent do we go to protect the person in the room. In my opinion this clearly demonstrates that risks have been considered and minimised where possible. Whatever happened to "reasonable steps", and would this solution not demonstrate to a court that reasonable steps had been taken.

Do not all the statistics show that fatalities in buildings other than dwellings are minimal (I would be interested to know how many have occured in hotel rooms), and that false alarms are on the increase.

The only way I would consider smoke detection within the rooms would be with a delay on the alarm. But even in this scenario, to allow a suitable delay from the time of activation of the detector, to locate the incident and get to the room in question, would it not be probably too late anyway?

I also do not advocating putting lives at risk to save money, but do consider cost against effectiveness.

Offline Pip

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Heat or Smoke detection in hotels?
« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2007, 03:50:54 PM »
Where are the stats that show how many lives have been saved by AFD in Hotels?Local AFD reduction Target well ahead of schedule.
I know of 3 occaisions where I have carried out rescues although room  occupier had not woken , neighbours had alerted Fire Service.
As most hotel room occupiers are 'Relevant persons',will the FSO change the previous reasons for AFD?
As far as I know,locally we will proceed with asking for SD untill challenged.

Offline Martin Burford

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Heat or Smoke detection in hotels?
« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2007, 04:17:44 PM »
Pip
There arn't any stats as you well know... so whats the pomt your trying to make
you refer to 3 occasions where YOU carried out rescues, form the room of origin?.......................And why did the fire alarm in your hotels not waken the the other occupants.....or don't you have stats for that!
The whole point of the RRO is, I was informed by Andy Jack, to reduce the burdons on industry and commerce, but almost every posting I have read on here, since 1st October 2006, indicates extra this extra that, more detection, new systems, when will it all end ?
Conqueror.

Offline PhilB

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Heat or Smoke detection in hotels?
« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2007, 08:27:11 PM »
Quote from: Pip
I know of 3 occaisions where I have carried out rescues although room  occupier had not woken , neighbours had alerted Fire Service.

.
Pip were these rescues carried out from hotel bedrooms, I think not. Earlier posts on here have expalined to you that the situation in other residential premises, particularly HMOs and some private dwellings is entirely different.

With regards to stats, do some research and I would welcome other posters inputs on this.........can someone give us an example where the occupant of a hotel room had to be rescued from the room of origin due to lack of smoke detction in the room?..I don't think there will be many examples.

Offline Richard Earl

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Heat or Smoke detection in hotels?
« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2007, 10:34:09 PM »
hi we re doing an up grade in a arge hotel now, and we are doing alarm verification oon the detection in the rooms

contact me if you wish,

richard.earl@tecservuk.com

Offline AFD

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Heat or Smoke detection in hotels?
« Reply #59 on: March 27, 2007, 08:56:18 AM »
Conqueror states that the 'RRO was done to reduce the burden on industry' !  I think we know that is political speak -  All the RRO does is state it is self compliance (in the future it will be self regulation).  It means there will be reduction in the need for fire authority inspectors
( less money from public purse).  The burden on medium to small businesses has increased. The larger organisations generaly have always had some form of fire safety advisor available, now the smaller one have to employ consulatants as they are fearful of not carrying out their duties.  
The case of reduction in cost by implying they do not have to provide what is a satisfactory standard of fire precautions is nonsence, if the risk assessment concludes they need something doing, then they need it doing, if not they don't.  I am still hearing consultants state 'its existing' !! So what ? fire certificates have gone ! We all know there are  poor standards in buildings that have been left for years, we risk assess and if done in professional manner it will tell us what is required.  There seems to a body of thought that we only 'risk assess downwards'
( including politicians ) if  we act professionally a risk assesment will be true and accurate and provide a satisfactory standard of achievable fire precautions. If we do, we can move this industry forwards, and remove the bull !