Author Topic: Delays on Manual Call Points  (Read 28900 times)

Offline Terry9

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« on: April 23, 2007, 12:25:27 PM »
I work for a company with several large hotels in central London, the largest of which has somewhere in the region of 4500 detector heads. At present we successfully manage a staff alarm where our fire team have 5 minutes to investigate an actuation by a single head before the fire brigade is called. This has significantly reduced the number of calls to the fire brigade over the years. However, we still experience fairly regular incidents of malicious call point actuations.

In order to reduce these, the call points are sited inside stairwells rather than along the corridors, and in some places have been provided with lift-up covers. In our experience having a cover to lift does very little to prevent a vandal from activating the call point if that is their intention. Nor would CCTV help much. Firstly we would need a huge number of cameras to cover every call point and even then, CCTV does not prevent vandalism, only helps to confirm that, yes, the call point was activated by an unknown human being.

Once we have one evacuation, we usually then experience copy-cat evacuations over successive days and nights, either from people who thought it was funny to see the fire brigade turn up in the middle of the night, or disgruntled customers out for revenge on their lost sleep. In any case, we have found the net result is that when you have to evacuate several thousand people at 4am because of vandalism, you can wave goodbye to their repeat custom and expect a flood of complaint letters erroneously claiming that the fire alarm ‘does not work’.

We have looked at the idea of phased evacuations, but when the alarm sounds at night, an evacuation on one floor will disturb everyone else in the building. To go down the route of a voice alarm system, whereby we could call people out section at a time would be wonderful, but after several enquiries, for the largest of our sites we would be looking somewhere around 250K to have the system fitted.

However, in the ‘new’ fire risk assessment guides for sleeping accommodation (pp.53-54) we think we may have found a solution. In the section on manual call points one of its recommendations to reduce unwanted alarms was to have ‘a delayed alarm for investigation purposes.’ When reading this I was reminded for the Fire Action Notices in my local London Underground station which say ‘Operate the fire alarm. No sound will be heard but the fire brigade will be called.’

I contacted our Inspecting Officer from the fire brigade and proposed extending the delay to call points in areas that had AFD coverage and providing a suitably worded fire action notice with each device. We reasoned that in most cases AFD would detect a smoldering fire before a person did and that the fire team would already be en-route by the time the person reached the nearest MCP and activated it. If the person reached the MCP first, it would not be long before AFD noticed the fire also. In our experience of using a delay, the average time for our fire team reaching even the furthest point on the guest floors is about 2½ minutes. Often they are on the scene much sooner than that. Given this proposal, the Inspecting Officer said he would not be against the proposal, but that we ought to perhaps check with our insurers to see if they had any objections.

This is the stage we are at now, and having read contributions on this forum with interest I thought it might be enlightening to see if anyone else has gone down this route, or what comments it might raise.

thanks,

Terry

Offline jokar

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2007, 01:04:21 PM »
It is refreshing for me to see such a detailed anaylsis of a problem and a thoughtful solution.  Even more refreshing is the FSO officers response.

Chris Houston

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2007, 01:10:26 PM »
I work for a major insurer.  I would be very nervous about a customer who wanted to do this, but would listen to, and consider, their argument.  I would want to be certain that fail safe mechanisms were robust and that risk assessments were clear.
____________________________________

On a train, if you pull an alarm you are put in contact with the driver who will speak to you to find out the problem.  Things would be much easier in the UK if fire alarms used the same technology.

Offline Terry9

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2007, 02:24:17 PM »
In coming up with this idea we are putting a lot of emphasis on having 24 hour on duty fire team who have enough knowledge of the system to explain any queries that might arise. We would also build the delay into the security information that goes to coach party / student group leaders.

Beyond that we have argued that the failsafe for this set up would be that the areas provided with delays are covered by AFD and that if there was a fire we would very quickly get a 'double knock' which would activate sounders and the auto-dialler.

From our point of view the only people that would be inconvieienced by the lack of sounders activating immediately would be the vandals.

I think that the key to it working is in the wording of the fire action notice.

Terry

Offline nearlythere

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2007, 02:27:08 PM »
Chris
I would be interested to know why you would be nervous about this issue and that you would listen and only consider arguements.
Is it a case that you would listen and not consider because it would possibly go against what would traditionally be deemed Good Practice? What would be the alternative solution?
This issue is a bit like a hold open device on a fire door. If you don't permit it then it will be wedged open to never close when required.

This is where risk assessments are extremely useful. One sometimes has to think outside the box and find a reasonable resolution to a problem which is not covered in the Codes.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

messy

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2007, 02:32:15 PM »
Terry 9

Does the Hotel use heat detectors anywhere, and if so, would MCPs in that area be 'wired' to immediately active the AFD?

If a member of staff discovered a fire, would s/he be able to over-ride the delayed MCP?

Will the delay be time related (just between certain times of day?)

Lastly, you mention that this new approach is based upon the reasoning that  "in most cases AFD would detect a smoldering fire before a person did".

Have you evidence of this? As I would argue that there is no greater fire detetion system than a combination of a nose and eyes, and I have attended many fires where occupiers have discovered them well before the AFD.

Call me old fashioned, but I do have some reservations about extending delayed AFD systems to incorporate MCPs - especially in sleeping risks!

Maybe it's because I have been bought up assuming that Fire Risk Assessments are concerned with life safety, or in certain cases, business continuity. Now it seems that control measures are being squeezed to prevent vandalism affecting profits!!

One (very) last point: London Fire Brigade have a policy on Time Delay and Time related AFD systems, which definately would not permit MCP delays as proposed by your Hotel . Is there any sugestion that that policy is(or will be) scrapped?

Offline wee brian

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2007, 02:50:29 PM »
It sounds fair enough to me. I've dealt with jobs where the MCPs have been relocated or even removed to avoid malicious operation.

My main concern would be that If I did see a fire and hit a break glass that there would be no indication that the thing had worked. Could you incorporate an indicator that showed  that the signal had been raised? (flashing LED or a quiet sound).

Offline John Webb

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« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2007, 03:09:24 PM »
To terry9:
I assume the lift-up covers fitted to some MCPs are the plain plastic type. I have seen protective covers with their own inbuilt sounder to deter vandels; could these help?

If you have staff permanently on duty and available to respond to the operation of a MCP, would it be possible to consider 'fire telephones' in the areas where the problem is greatest? Anyone spotting a fire could use these to speak with staff immediately, who could then investigate or sound the alarm depending on the information given them. Verbal communication does seem to deter hoaxers to a degree; I don't know if it would work well enough in your situation.
John Webb
Consultant on Fire Safety, Diocese of St Albans
(Views expressed are my own)

terry martin

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2007, 03:45:38 PM »
Quote from: messy
One (very) last point: London Fire Brigade have a policy on Time Delay and Time related AFD systems, which definately would not permit MCP delays as proposed by your Hotel . Is there any sugestion that that policy is(or will be) scrapped?
No indication yet, but virtually every LFB policy has or is being rewritten to reflect the RRO it will probabley be in the pipeline.
 I think in the Age of the RA, the policy as it is would'nt really stand up against the RRO if challenged.

 I am an I.O of the LFB and on the information given would certainly consider the proposal put forward. although the suggestion of MCP's 'back of house' not being on a time delay would be preferable.

Offline Terry9

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2007, 04:06:56 PM »
Thanks for all the replies - there are a lot of things here that we have thought about going into this.

We are looking at putting the delay on call points in areas covered by smokes - call points in higher risk areas like the kitchens or plant rooms which are covered by heats would not have a delay, going on the theory that the detection time would be a lot longer and that they are out of bounds to the public.

I know about the LFB's policy on delays, as that is what has governed us up to this point, but we have dealt with a succession three long service Fire Inspectors, all of whom were quite happy for us to extend the delay providing we could demonstrate effective management of the system.

In a slightly wider scope, with our fire certificate effectively consigned to the dustbin, if we work to the risk assessment guides, and the risk assessment guide says 'consider delays on call points' and we carry out our risk assessment and demostrate effective management of our system, what exactly would Fire Inspectors be objecting to?

Also, we have looked at these MCP covers with built in alarms, and from experience the trouble with them is that the determined vandal will operate it anyhow and now we will have two alarms to deal with!

I noted in 5839 that it says a visual indication must be provided to show that the actuation of the call point has worked. I know the LED on the box will come on, but rather than a visual indication, to me it is a communication problem. If you have a flashing light attached and the person activates the alarm, but doesn't hear the sound, will they be satisfied by a flashing light? I think the key to it is providing an effective written instruction adjacent to the call point, as London Underground do, telling people they will not hear a sound, but that help will be on the way.

Behind all this is a desire to reduce unwanted alarms. It's not simply from the point of view of protecting revenue, although that is a consideration. The main point is that people get risk hardened to false alarms and will not react in future.

Adding up the pros and cons of this arguement, we have on one hand the issue of evacuating several thousand people at night, into the street because of 'a prank' against delaying the actuation of the sounders for 2-3 minutes while the fire team investigate, providing the system does not double-knock before they get there.

Terry

Chris Houston

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2007, 05:05:23 PM »
Quote from: nearlythere
Chris
I would be interested to know why you would be nervous about this issue and that you would listen and only consider arguements.
Is it a case that you would listen and not consider because it would possibly go against what would traditionally be deemed Good Practice? What would be the alternative solution?
This issue is a bit like a hold open device on a fire door. If you don't permit it then it will be wedged open to never close when required.

This is where risk assessments are extremely useful. One sometimes has to think outside the box and find a reasonable resolution to a problem which is not covered in the Codes.
Simply, I would be nervous because if the system fails, and the evacuation of the hotel guests is delayed or not undertaken, following a fire and a fire alarm system activation, this could result in fatalities, cost a lot of money to the properly, liability and business interuption insurer.

Alternatives including immediate evacuation upon fire alarm system activation plus focussing on reducing false alarms.

I would add that while codes and legislation are useful benchmarks (and breaking them can make litigation easier) they are not the primarly issue for an insurer.  i.e. something can be illegal, but not likley to result in a fire/injury in which case it's not a big deal for insurers, or something can be legal, but still unacceptable in an insurers opinin.

Offline nearlythere

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« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2007, 05:05:55 PM »
Terry9
How do vandals get in to your hotels in the first place?
Have you tried a scatter gun?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Chris Houston

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2007, 05:09:18 PM »
Quote from: Terry9
I noted in 5839 that it says a visual indication must be provided to show that the actuation of the call point has worked. I know the LED on the box will come on, but rather than a visual indication, to me it is a communication problem. If you have a flashing light attached and the person activates the alarm, but doesn't hear the sound, will they be satisfied by a flashing light? I think the key to it is providing an effective written instruction adjacent to the call point, as London Underground do, telling people they will not hear a sound, but that help will be on the way.
My understanding of 5839 is that there should be no more than a 3 second delay between pressing the call point and hearing the alarm, this is so that the person trying to activate the alarm does not hang about after pressing it.  

I must admit, if I saw a fire, pressed a call point and didn't hear an alarm, it would give me serious worries and I do wonder if I would then evacuate immediatly or try to wake my friends and family (and others) first.

Offline nearlythere

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2007, 05:20:19 PM »
Quote from: Chris Houston
Quote from: nearlythere
Chris
I would be interested to know why you would be nervous about this issue and that you would listen and only consider arguements.
Is it a case that you would listen and not consider because it would possibly go against what would traditionally be deemed Good Practice? What would be the alternative solution?
This issue is a bit like a hold open device on a fire door. If you don't permit it then it will be wedged open to never close when required.

This is where risk assessments are extremely useful. One sometimes has to think outside the box and find a reasonable resolution to a problem which is not covered in the Codes.
Simply, I would be nervous because if the system fails, and the evacuation of the hotel guests is delayed or not undertaken, following a fire and a fire alarm system activation, this could result in fatalities, cost a lot of money to the properly, liability and business interuption insurer.

Alternatives including immediate evacuation upon fire alarm system activation plus focussing on reducing false alarms.

I would add that while codes and legislation are useful benchmarks (and breaking them can make litigation easier) they are not the primarly issue for an insurer.  i.e. something can be illegal, but not likley to result in a fire/injury in which case it's not a big deal for insurers, or something can be legal, but still unacceptable in an insurers opinin.
I know where you are coming from Chris but you surely have to look at it realistically. There is a serious problem which if not addressed could lead to the circumstances you describe.
Terry9 is trying to take measured steps to ensure that if the alarm sounds it is for the right reason.
Do you not think that with persistant false actuations of the alarm a "cry wolf" mentality might creep in?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline jokar

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Delays on Manual Call Points
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2007, 05:52:11 PM »
Whilst London as a Brigade have a policy on Time Delayed systems they do not rigidly apply it and whilst that policy does not allow it for sleeping risks it has been used before.  In some cases the time has been extended to 10 minutes in certain premises that are well managed.