HMO's

[MrH]

I probably know the answer but, request your views on this subject.

Under RRO is there a requirement to provide fire extinguishers within the common areas of a HMO?
Or can your legally justify requesting  extinguishers
Nobody works there, just tennants lsleeping on second floor
escape in one direction

[Midland Retty]

Extinguishers not required as in theiory you would potentialy have to train residents in their use.

With visiting contractors the advice should be to esape in event of fire rather make any provision in terms of firefighting equipment specifically for them.

[stewbow]

That's it, let the place burn down,,,,, and to think, once upon a time people were brave enough to actually try a put fires out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Redone]

I'm thinking contractors should provide there own fire equipment if any onsite works produces a risk - plumber...

Method of work statement from contractor should cover risks/precautions taken.

[Midland Retty]

That's it, let the place burn down,,,,, and to think, once upon a time people were brave enough to actually try a put fires out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wind of change has blown through HMO's - the problem is untrained residents tackling fire - it presents risks in its own right  - ie water extinguisher on chip pan, or electrics etc

[nearlythere]

Extinguishers not required as in theiory you would potentialy have to train residents in their use.

With visiting contractors the advice should be to esape in event of fire rather make any provision in terms of firefighting equipment specifically for them.

Where does the visiting contractors bit come from? It is not a place of employment unless there is some form of construction going on. The CDM applies.

In the event of a fire in the domestic environment the F&RS advice to residents is to shut the door to the room - Get out - Get the Fire Service Out - and Stay Out.

If a risk assessment says that the advice to residents is to do the above then FFFE is irrelevant. FFFE is not provided in the work environment to secure the means of escape. it is to provide a means to fight a small fire should the person discovering the fire choose to do so. There is no statutory requirement for anyone to remain in or go into any building on fire and try to extinguish it. Not even the F&RS.

[Ken Taylor]

If contractors are carrying out work that introduces a fire risk (eg hot-work), they should provide suitable means of preventing or initially dealing with the fire. When a managing body engages a contractor for hot-work it is sensible to require the provision of adequate fire-fighting equipment within the contract or permit to work.

As to residents fighting fires, they may decide for themselves as to whether they obtain a fire extinguisher for their own residences. Fire-blankets have always seemed a reasonable provision in the home environment to me and the associated eplanatory leaflet should tell them what to do with them.  I have installed extinguishers in common areas of sheltered accommodation blocks but done this along with providing leafletsto residents and training to wardens (with a request to cascade the information to the residents.

[Midland Retty]

Where does the visiting contractors bit come from? It is not a place of employment unless there is some form of construction going on. The CDM applies.

Contractors might be employed to come into my HMO to maintain the emergency lighting for instance.

CDM regs therefore don't apply!!!

The contractors I employ should expect to be able to work in a safe environment, so as a landlord of a HMO I have a duty to make provision for the safety of anyone whom could enter or use my premises.

If we dont provide extinguishers for residents I might ask the contractors to bring their own FFFE provision (infact this might be compulsory if they are doing hot works), or failing that I'd induct them to evacuate only, and not attempt to fight fire as there are no fire extinguishers present.

If a resident wants to provide his own extinguisher then thats his perogative and therefoere his own responsibility not the landlord's.

Nobody here has suggested extinguishers are there to protect the means of escape, and visiting contractors wouldn't necessarily be confined to building sites.

[firehawk]

I was under the impression, visiting contractor or not, this may not be their normal place of employment but would still surely be classed as 'a workplace'?  

Extinguishers not required as in theiory you would potentialy have to train residents in their use.

With visiting contractors the advice should be to esape in event of fire rather make any provision in terms of firefighting equipment specifically for them.

Where does the visiting contractors bit come from? It is not a place of employment unless there is some form of construction going on. The CDM applies.

In the event of a fire in the domestic environment the F&RS advice to residents is to shut the door to the room - Get out - Get the Fire Service Out - and Stay Out.

If a risk assessment says that the advice to residents is to do the above then FFFE is irrelevant. FFFE is not provided in the work environment to secure the means of escape. it is to provide a means to fight a small fire should the person discovering the fire choose to do so. There is no statutory requirement for anyone to remain in or go into any building on fire and try to extinguish it. Not even the F&RS.

[Midland Retty]

I was under the impression, visiting contractor or not, this may not be their normal place of employment but would still surely be classed as 'a workplace'?  

Extinguishers not required as in theiory you would potentialy have to train residents in their use.

With visiting contractors the advice should be to esape in event of fire rather make any provision in terms of firefighting equipment specifically for them.

Where does the visiting contractors bit come from? It is not a place of employment unless there is some form of construction going on. The CDM applies.

In the event of a fire in the domestic environment the F&RS advice to residents is to shut the door to the room - Get out - Get the Fire Service Out - and Stay Out.

If a risk assessment says that the advice to residents is to do the above then FFFE is irrelevant. FFFE is not provided in the work environment to secure the means of escape. it is to provide a means to fight a small fire should the person discovering the fire choose to do so. There is no statutory requirement for anyone to remain in or go into any building on fire and try to extinguish it. Not even the F&RS.

Yes it would be their workplace and dont call me shirley!

As I mentioned previously you may ask the Contractor to bring his/her own fire extinguisher... it would be up to me for instance to inform the contractor (or his/her boss) that I dont have FFE in the building. They would then need to also risk assess the situation and decide based on what I would tell them if they feel it is safe to send their employees across to work in my HMO.

Yes it is their workplace and i see where you are coming from but if I were to provide exxtiguishers in my HMO i would be liable to ensure all the residents were trained to use them. RRO states that if someone provides them they must aso train a certain percentage of their employees /relevant persons etc.

I could lock an extinguisher in a cupboard for the contractor to retrieve it (i'd obviously give him a key) and keep it near him / her where they are working etc.

[kurnal]

I disagree with one of your statements Midland Retty.
Under the RRO  I dont think the Responsible Person has a duty to train anybody unless they are an employee.

So I dont think that the Responsible Person in a HMO, if he chooses to  provide Fire extinguishers,  has a duty to train the residents in their use.

[Midland Retty]

I disagree with one of your statements Midland Retty.
Under the RRO  I dont think the Responsible Person has a duty to train anybody unless they are an employee.

So I dont think that the Responsible Person in a HMO, if he chooses to  provide Fire extinguishers,  has a duty to train the residents in their use.

What if a resident gets injured then as a result of using the wrong type of extinguisher?

[GB]

In Scotland within legislation concerning HMO's, a suitable fire extinguisher should be installed within common escape. We have found a number of local authorities dealing with the licensing of HMO's asking in addition to the fire blanket within the kitchen, either a 2Kg DP or 2Kg CO2, as well as a 13 A within apartment hallway.

If memory serves me right it is within Civic Govt Act dealing with HMO premises.

[Martin Burford]

BG
A simple but effective way out of this uncertain situation is to ensure contractors bring their own portable fire fighting equipment...write that into their contract.
Conqueror

[messy]

If the contractor is involved in hot work, it's often in their insurance smallprint.

I have had dealings with an insurance company who used the lack of suitable roofing contractor's FFE to wriggle out of/reduce a claim for a fire which destroyed huge Kensington penthouse leaving over £200,000 in damage (about 10 years ago!).

I felt a little sorry for the roofer who had sustained serious injuries to his hands ripping the roof off by hand when he discovered the fire inside the locked and inaccessible penthose. He had bought a small DP extinguisher up to the 6th floor as he considered his 9l water too heavy. However, he was in breach of his insurance smallprint which dictated the extinguisher type and rating.