Fire safety at Childcare Premises

[messy]

Can anyone direct me towards guidance for childcare premises, and in particular, devising an emergency evacuation plan?

The occupancy of the largish childcare facility concerned includes 50 (walking) toddlers and up to 25 babies. I have found quite a bit of reference material on general fire precautions for child minders et al, but very little relating to the evacuation of babies.

Staffing ratios are high, but establishing a suitable system for evacuating the babies is causing them quite a headache

There is no suitable location for an assembly point (which obviously needs to take into account weather cover for the youngsters). The premises concerned have no grounds or yard as the building discharges directly into a busy street. In addition, there are no suitable adjacent buildings or businesses which could cater for this occasional need (except for one who wanted an astronomical annual fee).

To make things even more difficult, the design of the building makes PHE impossible.

Any pointers towards suitable guidance would be gratefully received!

[kurnal]

Messy
The proverbial rock and hard place. Whilst my philosophy on life has always been "can do" there are some premises that are currently occupied that are not fit for purpose.

Like this one sometimes its impossible to find a fire safety solution and in these cases- where there is an existing business and fire safety is the only problem- it is not well received by the management when you try to explain.
Sometimes there just isnt an answer. In these cases I usually talk it through with the owner, send a confirming letter and walk away without charging a fee.

What is worrying is that for a couple of new builds recently where the architect has come up with a stupid design and the AI has approved it with the problems " to be sorted out through the risk assessment" I have found myself in same situation.

[Martin Burford]

Messy
Regarding baby evacuation is there not something in the NHS code that may help... but reading your plight you have a difficult one.
Conqueror
ps I;ll put my thinking cap on!

[kurnal]

Staffing ratios in these situations are often down to 3 babies to 1 staff. How many children are there altogether and is there any conveyance that would enable them all to be taken out at once- a cot on wheels or some kind of buggy? Social services or the council emergency planning department may be able to help in identifying  suitable assembly points with shelter near by. I did once nominate a minibus as a shelter for the occupants of a small childrens care unit.

[CivvyFSO]

This may sound silly, but with specific regards to the walking toddlers, I tend to suggest some form of 'fire snake' that the kids can have fun making, and when it comes to the evacuation all the kids hold on to the snake they made and follow a member of staff out, with a member of staff keeping an eye on the back of the 'snake'. (or one of the older more well behaved kids who could alert a member of staff if another child lets go)  If staff treat the drills as a bit of a game then the kids tend to happily play along. That will release some of the staff that are designated to look ater the toddlers free to help evacuate the babies. And as Kurnal said, cots on wheels help.

From ofsted:
Day Nurseries
Minimum staffing ratios (this includes children of staff and volunteers)
1 member of staff for every 3 children under 2 years old
1 member of staff for every 4 children aged 2 years old
1 member of staff for every 8 children aged 3 to 7 years old

50 toddlers = 7 staff (Although some may be under 2 and walking)
25 Babies = 9 staff

Example of how it can help:
17 kids to each "snake", One member of staff at the front of the snake holding a baby, one at the rear holding a baby and ensuring nobody leaves the snake. 3 snakes use maximum 6 staff and also take 6 babies.

Leaves 19 babies for 10 staff. Much more manageable than 3 babies per person.

It's not perfect, and it would take alot of practice, but sometimes you have to make the best of a bad job. The "snake" can also have specific sections to be held, and can help in a roll call and to keep the kids orderly once outside. (They are already in a line up of sorts.)

I am sure someone will find problems with it, and I would be glad of any constructive suggestions that could be passed on to these facilities.

I would also concentrate on extinguisher training for staff to ensure any problem is dealt with in the early stages. People in these facilities always go for the 'everybody out immediately' approach and therefore do not think about staff training on FFE. But good procedures with one or two persons nominated to tackle any small fire could avert a serious incident. Due to the time an evac would take there is plenty of time for the fire to be attacked while everything else is getting into motion.

[CivvyFSO]

Doh, I went on a bit there didn't I?

[wee brian]

My even be worth considering some form of PHE. Can the building be subdivided into two compartments?

Just a thought

[Fishy]

Not 'childcare' per se, but some interesting stuff on managing fire safety for very little people at this link...

www.chilternfire.co.uk/content/view/103/232/

[CivvyFSO]

That is the best information out there at the moment for those indoor play areas. Should be of special interest to all of us here potentially involved in enforcement and risk assessments of those premises. They are quite similar to the case above with regards the difficulty in finding a solution.

[jokar]

Woukld it be possible to change the arrangements of the Fire Alarm if it is an electronic version?
A 2 stage alarm may be more acceptable and allow for an investigation to take place, even a time delay may make a difference.  The process of discharging all onto the street at any time but more so in inclement weather is a difficult scenario for most adults, when you have to look after children and toddlesr it becomes much worse.

Is there anywhere in an adjacent building that could take the "snake" and allow for weather protection and facilities required.  An assembly point does not have to be outside.

[nearlythere]

Compartmentation is a very good approach and should always be a consideration when children, elderly or infirm or any other assisted escape situations is concerned. This can be a means of getting all persons out of the immediate danger zone into an area of relative safety quickly before the next stage of the evacuation to outside or indeed to the next safe area.
To evacuate individually to absolute safety could be a recipe for disaster.
In small premises where corridors may not exist then ground floor rooms with a final exit therefrom can also be relatively good temporary safe refuges.
In an expansive property a room with a final exit in a wing well away from the fire could provide a longer term relatively safe area.
But it all depends very much on what you have to work with especially staffing levels.

[messy]

Thanks for all your replies. Very useful stuff

Firstly: the toddlers represent perhaps the least difficulty in the evac plan as they will ( as has been mentioned) will have fun 'assisting' with the evacuation (subject to regular drills)

It those damn babies which cause concern! There are a number of stairs (complete with a tight turn) between the childcare accomodation and the final exit so wheeled buggy/cots are a non-starter.

There are two major difficulties with a PHE approach:
Firstly: the grade II status of the building and the reluctance/difficulties in upgrading one particular door to become fire rated.
Secondly, both of the two compartments/refuges are still a staircase away from the final exit- not an ideal situation.

The ongoing assembly point search remains unresolved. The only possible business wants a very(ridiculously) large amount of cash pa, and in any case, it closes 3 hrs before the last kid is picked up, leaving 60 hrs per month with no assembly point

I have written to Ofsted in the search for reference material, but in the absence of suitable 'official' guidance, upgrading the compartmentation maybe the only solution. That and the provision of a bespoke multibaby carry cot - once a manufacturer can be found!!!

What is it they say? Never work with kids and animals - Now I know why!!

Once again, thanks for your help

[Mr. P]

I thought a big part of this is covered by Ofsted.  They are the enforcing/licensing authority.  Part of their cert process is to ensure that not just educational aspects are covered but the RA and et.al.  Looked for a link on ofsted web site but could not find specifics for your thread.

[kurnal]

You are right Mr P and in all honesty OFSTED are generally easily satisfied with standard procedures that are more suited to workplaces in general rather than addressing the specific issues related to the evacuation of babes in arms. Their staff usually  have little fire safety expertixw in my experience.

[wee brian]

Sounds like the premises is NBG.

They should either put it right or go somewhere else.