Live Fire Training

[jasper]

Hi all, I am currently providing the various fire training packages for clients, however one in particular has expressed a liking to 'hands on' extinguisher use with the live trailer type units. Just wondered on your guys views on this type of training i.e. environmentally and also what the training rigs cost? and also what the typical annual insurance for this is?

[AnthonyB]

LPG Rigs cost from a few hundred quid for a single stand alone component to up to 10K for a full multi fire class simulator in a portable trailer format.

The trailers are more enviro friendly than 'real' fires as are clean burning and use LPG rather than the variety of HFL's & wood used for tradiional training. The trailers usually also have a tray to contain run off of foam etc, allowing safe collection & disposal rather than down the drain/into the grass.

[kurnal]

I used to train using bins and trays and real fires and the customers loved it. Trouble is disposal of effluent would require a licence and the insurance company then put in a new condition specifically excluding real fires. I looked at the simulators and they are great- trouble is the trailer based ones are 12- 16K for the full rig. And thats a lot of training courses.
I have got an agreement with another local company and when I do fire warden courses I hire their simulator along with a trained operator and they deliver it to the venue and operate it. The arrangement works well.
No insurance needed and environmentally sound enough I think. Disposal of the foam residue  becomes someone elses problem. I know there is a school of thought looking at water plus an environmentally friendly  soap additive for a special foam training extinguisher for use with the LPG fired tray.
 
Dry powder demos are always limited to one guick burst. I do worry about windows, inhalation and environment with dry powder.
The simulator is really good training and the students gain a great deal from it. For general staff courses I show a couple of videos on extinguishers  and probably discharge a C02 and water. Thats crap by comparison.

[messy]

I have seen a couple of demonstrations by gas rigs and although I can see their advantages as listed in the above posts, do they really provide a realistic experience compared with just a hands on actution by trainees (into thin air) in a car park?

What I am trying to get at is the extra expense (for the trainer and customer) worth the gain? - I am not sure

[kurnal]

In my experience the extra cost works out at about £15 per student and each  student gets a go with a foam, water and co2 ( usually a partial discharge each)  and one or two per course with dry powder.

Is it worth it- I believe very much so. If only judging by the students response at the end- they really appreciate the hands on experience against flames. Does it prepare them for the towering inferno? No way. But its the very best we can do given H&S and environmental considerations.

[Mr. P]

To get over the environmental disposal issues, use washing up liquid. You are controlling the gas rig fire simulator and if the extinguisher is being used correctly you turn it down and off. (per ce). Using soap bubbles inplace of foam concentrate the trainee can get idea pretty well what foam looks like.  I know several people who do this having checked with HS&E bods.

[kurnal]

Just to build on my previous posting I have dug out my assessment when I was thinking of buying a trailer.
You can expect the simulator to have paid for itself and be in profit by the time you have trained 1000- 1200  students.
The likely life expectancy  of the trailer based simulator is probably 5 years. So if you can use it for 200 students a year you will break even, not tasking into account towing costs. I usually find 9-12 students per session is about right, for which you will discharge 10-13 extinguishers.

[Ashley Wood]

I am looking for a company to tie upwith who has a simulator in East Anglia. Any one know of any body?

[jasper]

I have done a google and have only found one company providing simulators, anyone know of any good companies?

[nearlythere]

To get over the environmental disposal issues, use washing up liquid. You are controlling the gas rig fire simulator and if the extinguisher is being used correctly you turn it down and off. (per ce). Using soap bubbles inplace of foam concentrate the trainee can get idea pretty well what foam looks like.  I know several people who do this having checked with HS&E bods.

How does one use the washing up liquid to create foam?

[AnthonyB]

Washing up liquid is a synthetic detergent that foams, AFFF is a synthetic as well that foams. Add some to water in the correct amount (varies on the liquid, but some are quite strong and can be used in the same small amount as 1% AFFF, really cheap watery stuff needs amounts similar to that of 6%) and bob's you uncle. Looks good especially with a aspirating foam branchpipe extinguisher - never dared try it on a class B tray to see if it would work for real though!

[Underground]

Can I throw a question in here?  I was recently asked about what qualifications a customer should look for when determining which company to use for their fire training.  I.e.  should they look for someone who is accredited to a fire body of some sort?  I wasn't 100% sure, but I thought that it is, unfortunately, a scenario where any Tom, Dick or Harry could setup their own fire training company without any experience and 'have a go'.  Am I right?

[kurnal]

There is no prescribed qualification , so yes you are right. The Responsible person has a legal obligation to ensure that any persons assisting them to meet their obligations is competent.

The definition of a competent trainer is someone with appropriate training, qualifications and experience to do the job they are being asked to do. The Responsible person has to decide and satsify themselves that  this is the case. But theres no set down qualification.

[GB]

I utilised real fires then simulators for years with students enthusiastic about both. I recently stopped upon reflection of what I may have been conveying during the practical session particularly with the simulator.

The students saw a fire size and thought that they had the competency in dealing with it rather than worrying about volume, direction and contents of smoke.

Instead I allow them to discharge the extinguisher which gives them the hands on and hopefully with video and discussion review fire size / smoke contents.

I guess with these issues there is may not be a correct answer, just an interpretation of what is best practice and what would most benefit the student safely.

[Peter Wilkinson]

I have done a google and have only found one company providing simulators, anyone know of any good companies?

www.kiddeft.com
www.envirofire.com
www.process-combustion.co.uk/fire/
www.haagen-ftp.com/