certain group of hotels do they comply with FSO

[Dinnertime Dave]

It is my understanding that one authority is considering seeking a determination from the Secretary of State on this very matter.

They are concerned that if these matters were to be prosecuted through the courts then any outcome may have considerable impact upon similar types of premises. To ensure fairness, and a consistent approach, they believe it appropriate to seek a determination.

[Big T]

Surely the same procedure applies in all hotels.

Alarm goes off, leave by the nearest exit, go to the car park via the mini bar, get cold, get warm while the place burns down, write a letter of complaint, get a free stay at an equally poor hotel.

If we are honest, a fire alarm in a hotel would have us lot flying out of bed like a crazed banshee. Regardless of a courtesy knock on the door by weasel face Mgee from the concierge desk. " The hotels burning down sir see you in the car park" marvellous

With all the will in the world we all know that the staff in hotels are generally unmotivated, poorly treated and trained and are unlikely to be of much use in a fire.

[jasper]

a digicom on the fire alarm panel would alert the fire service, for the rest of it I just couldn't sleep at night being the rp and leaving the hotel totally unmanned

[Wiz]

Surely the same procedure applies in all hotels.

Alarm goes off, leave by the nearest exit, go to the car park via the mini bar, get cold, get warm while the place burns down, write a letter of complaint, get a free stay at an equally poor hotel.

If we are honest, a fire alarm in a hotel would have us lot flying out of bed like a crazed banshee. Regardless of a courtesy knock on the door by weasel face Mgee from the concierge desk. " The hotels burning down sir see you in the car park" marvellous

With all the will in the world we all know that the staff in hotels are generally unmotivated, poorly treated and trained and are unlikely to be of much use in a fire.

I've been meaning to post the following story for months and now seems an ideal time to do so.

In February of this year I stayed at a new modern hotel in Brindley Place in the centre of Birmingham.

In the early hours of the morning, the fire alarm warning sounders operated and I evacuated the building, along with hundreds of other customers to the parking area outside the hotel. After a while the Fire Brigade attended and a member of the hotel staff, dressed in a flourescent jacket, stood on a step ladder and shouted room numbers through a megaphone at us that he was reading from a list. He didn't ask for, or receive any response, from the crowd of evacuees standing around him. He was just shouting a list of random numbers as far as we all could tell. We asked him what he was trying to do but he said he didn't really know because his list contained all the hotel room numbers and not only those that were let, so he then decided to give up with his 'roll call'. We continued standing outside the hotel.

It was now approx 30 minutes after we evacuated the building and the outside air temperature was about 5C.

I looked up at the hotel and noticed dozens of people looking out of their bedroom windows at the rest of us standing outside the hotel. I did not see any smoke or flames.

I now noticed that most of the Fire crew were back in their appliance, so I wandered over and asked if they knew what the situation was. I was told that the Chief Fire Officer was now searching for the cause of the fire alarm condition along with the hotel manager. I asked him to use his radio to contact the Chief Fire Officer and the hotel manager to let him them know that there were numerous people who were inadequately dressed who had now been standing outside in very cold temperatures for nearly 45 minutes. The guy in the fire appliance replied that there was no way of contacting his 'Chief' because he wasn't carrying any two-way radio. I then suggested to him that the his colleague and the hotel manager could be burning to death somewhere in the hotel whilst he and the others were sitting around. He looked so stunned by my comment, that such a possibility had obviously never occured to him!

I then noticed that there were two young teenage girls standing on the cold pavement wearing no footwear and only thin nightdresses who were shivering excessively. There were two people guarding the entrance door to the foyer of the hotel and I asked them if the two young girls could be allowed to stand just inside the door because they were not wearing enough clothes to withstand the cold weather. They refused point blank. I pleaded that the we had all evacuated the hotel nearly an hour before and there was no sign of smoke or flames and that if the girls stood just inside the door they were guarding they could be evacuated immediately and quickly if it was still necessary. They again refused and said it was more than their 'jobs worth' to allow anyone back into the hotel before the Fire Brigade gave the go-ahead. I was so angry with the stupidity of these people that I sheperded both the teenage girls into the adjacent revolving door system, so that they were shielded from the wind. The 'jobsworths' then threatened to call the Police and have me arrested!

A few minutes later the 'Chief Fire Officer' and the Hotel Manager returned and allowed everybody to re-enter the hotel. I was going to immediately voice my anger at everything that had happened, but the whole place was in turmoil, so I, instead, went straight back to bed.

The next morning I awoke and found that there was no hot water for a shower and that the lifts were not working.

I went down to reception and spoke to the manager and it quickly became evident that the fire alarm system had not yet been reset to it's normal condition on the advice of the fire officer. He had told them to call out a fire alarm engineer to reset it. The manager didn't understand why they had no hot water and why the lifts weren't working and he also said that there was no gas supply in the kitchens. I explained to him why this was so, and I asked him why the fire alarm engineer had not arrived since it was now some 6 hours since we had re-occupied the hotel. He told me that the maintenance company had said that someone would be with him before mid-day. The manager was beside himself in trying to cope with no lifts, no hot water and no gas in the kitchens at breakfast time and hundreds of angry guests.

I explained to the hotel manager that I was a trained fire alarm engineer and offered to help him. I reset the fire panel for him (the lifts now started working) and asked him if the hotel's maintenance engineer knew how to reset the boilers and kitchen gas supply. He told me that no-one in the hotel knew anything about any of these things and that there were no manuals available to tell him how to do it. He took me to the kitchen where I witnessed a chef trying to make toast using a blow-torch that he would normally use for creme brulee!!!!!  I then decided my business insurance didn't cover me for messing about with gas supplies and heating boilers so I had to leave him with those problems.

I asked the manager about the jobsworths guarding the hotel doors the previous night and he told me that they were actually security people employed by the Brindley Place management company who had rushed to the hotel when they knew about the fire alarm warning at the hotel to offer their 'assistance'.

I subsequently wrote to the hotel with my complaints. They offered no explanations, gave me a general apology and a partial refund of my room cost.

I wonder if the two teenage girls died of hypothermia?

I wonder if the hotel has reviewed it's procedures in respect of a fire alarm operation?

I wonder if the fire alarm maintenance engineer ever turned up?

I wonder if the Firemen still sit in their appliance whilst their 'boss' investigates a fire alarm warning with no way of contacting him?

All of the above is a true account of a true incident. Has anyone got any comments as to why even a fully-manned modern hotel can so poorly manage such an incident (even with the 'assistance' of the fire brigade)?

[Chris Houston]

Does anyone else have a strange mix of being amazed but not surprised at the same time?

[val]

I wonder if this hotel would have claimed, (still does claim?) that they have excellent management procedures, their staff are always properly trained and their risk assessment rigorously audited. Whilst the operational fire officers hardly covered themselves in glory, I as a fire safety professional am constantly bombarded with requests to loosen this or that requirement because "we will, of course, maintain excellent management"
Sexy fire engineering relies on management which seldom lasts as long as it takes for the ink to dry on their BS 5588 Part 12 Fire Policy Statement. It is on 90% of occasions a myth!

[jokar]

A couple of things from this.  The firefighters may have been a retained crew, I do not know the area, therefore to get over the 1st hour gives them a bonus.  It may be that the crews have attended the premises on a number of occasions therefore creating a "not again" culture for the crew with a subsequent response from the hotel staff and management.  The management as Val has stated are probably not of the excellent quality and the training of the staff leaves alot to be desired.  However, my main point is why do we persist in single stage evacuation and place people at risk from exposure when a different evacuation plan will result in better control.  A PHE or 2 stage system or even defend in place alongside robust management procedures will suit many people including the guests and the staff.  Mind you the FSO's out there may have some difficulty adopting this sort of evacuation plan as it goes against their prescriptive non risk assessed nature.  (Apologies to all who have embraced the risk based fire safety culture).  Another issue of course is the fire alarm and the complete misunderstanding of how it works by both the fire crews and the staff.  How many risk assessors out there bother to ask whether the managers fully understand the FA system and whether they have the RP and Competent person as recommended in 5839 in place.

As an aside to this, a school had a failure due to inclement weather, lots of rain, in a smoke head.  The alarm went off and as a simultaneous evacuation process was in place on this school site the whole lrned out in the rain for many hours.  The incident was in an isolated building and the puils could have accessed any other place on the site.  But no, better to kill everyone with pneumonia than to think about a better evacuation strategy and to be able to manage the system in a proper manner.

[The Colonel]

Jokar

West Mids service only have one retained unit which is on the border with Worcestershire all the rest are wholetime and they should know better

[jokar]

Thanks for that.  I wonder what with addressable panels and zoned out premises why it too so long to check?

[Pip]

1)no excuse for being out of contact with pump.
2)a lot of brigades policy is not to reset alarms,only silence at most-can't be sued then.Re instatement is the occupiers responsibility.
3) Occupier should make arrangements for temp alternative accommodation,provide space blankets etc,or identify,if possible, a 'relatively safe area(after discussions with Fire officer) if there is to be a prolonged search.Most OPH's do it-otherwise you would more likely kill more old folk through cold than a fire!

[Dinnertime Dave]

I can see I’m going to have to spend my dinnertimes apologising and giving explanations for all my colleagues actions nationally.

Crews in the centre of Birmingham are unlikely to be retained although that should not make any difference at all.

The ‘not again culture’ would be unprofessional and frankly as an officer in charge it wouldn’t be long before you were caught out if you adopted this attitude.

It is standard procedure for the Oi/c to enter the building with most of the crew staying with the appliance until needed, although with a radio (and a spare battery in my pocket) and one other crew member. You might have been fobbed off!  

Are sure there wasn’t a fire? Nearly an hour for an AFA would be unusual with an addressable system. 10mins in and out – back to my bed.

Crews don’t reset systems anymore. Gone are the days when as a probationer I stood on a ladder blowing dust out of a detector head. Crews are told that alarm engineers are unable to locate the fault if they do. Also, I think brigades are scared of the potential for litigation.      

As an FSO when carrying out any audits of a premises I always ask what contingency plans they have in place for dealing with anybody who may have been evacuated either due to a false alarm or fire. Also, as an operational officer I was always more than willing to allow people to sit in a reception or a lounge (with an external door and a firefighter with a radio) in inclement weather.  

Finally Val, I wish it was as high as 90% all the sexy fire engineered solutions I see claim to have Red Adair as the MD and staff trained by the Fire Service College. However, Approved Inspectors say “You`ve got to work on the facts, not your experience of other projects”

[Wiz]

I've rechecked my facts from my records and from the recollections of people who were with me.

I do have the date wrong. The incident was actually in the early hours of Saturday 24th March.

The actual hotel was the City Inn, Brindley Place, Birmingham.

My colleagues agree that we were all stood outside for approx. an hour and the temperature was to quote a colleague 'brass monkey weather'.

My recollection is that the fire brigade turned up just as we were evacuating the hotel. At least 4 firemen went into the hotel upon arrival. After about 25 minutes, the manager and the one fire officer went up the hotel stairs (the other firemen got back into the appliance and sat there watching the shivering crowds milling about!). We waited about another 30 minutes before the manager and fire officer returned and we were let back into the hotel.

[messy]

I agree that the fire crew here could have acted differently, but the ownership of fire safety and all that goes with it belongs to the Responsible Person (RP) - The Hotel.

It was the RP who is responsible for the evacuation, the roll call, the protection of guests duringa roll call, the reinstating of the AFD (and any other services linked to it) and finally, getting the system repaired (and not relying on helpful engineers such as Wiz who might be staying at the Hotel).

The Fire Service have never been responsible for resetting AFD systems (but we always have). If this was a wholetime crew (who would also have warm beds awaiting them back at the station) it would appear that the officer in charge was actually trying to help resolve the problem with the alarm, despite that not really being his/her brief.

In addition, it may be the case that whilst the officer was helping resolve the issue, the appliance was made availabe for further calls. In which case, you wouldn't want the crew dispersed around the hotel.

As for not looking after the welfare of the punters, despite this being a RP's responsibility, it's fair to say that once in attendance the fire crew should take charge and obviously failed to do so here.

Lets hope it wasn't a repeat of the Scottish incident recently, which led to  a discipline case after FFs left University students in the cold for ages to 'teach them a lesson' following repeated false alarms (MCPs actuations)

[Midland Retty]

It isnt the fire service's responsibility to arrange for stranded hotel guests to take refuge.

It might be the OiC of the fire crew asked the manager to make arrangements for the guests to be temporarily sheltered somewhere.

So its very easy to criticise when you don't know the full facts. One thing that may have played on the OiC's mind is the fact that the fire alarm could not be reset, and was trying to help the Manager reset the alarm

Having said that i would have asked for the duty Brigade fire safety officer to come out because you can not allow people to go back into a building and sleep when the fire alarm system has not been reset. Clearly any secondary incidents wouldn't set the alarms off.

I also take strong exception made about retained crews drawing incidents out for the sake of getting extra cash - we get paid for a full first hour regardless! (£12) So that was a silly comment to make! Im not saying that all retained crews are angels but the vast majority do as good a job as their full time colleagues. (by the way im wholetime with one brigade and retained with another)

[jokar]

Whilst I will take on board what you say, I have been in and around the fire service long enough to know all the facts.  The difficulty here is the H&S issue of lareg numbers of people standing around in the cold conditions whilst no fire has been found.  It is not only about turning up it is about managing the situation when you are there.  For F/F's to sit on the appliance in the warm while people are stood outside in the cold with little clothing is a poor example of managing an incident.  If the fire alarm was zoned correctly then this need not happen.  Obviously there are managerial faults from the hotel staff which need resolution but lets not be hypocritical, its easy to be complacent when you are fully clothed and warm but consideration should be given to others less fortunate.