Vandalism of fire doors

[Big T]

All,

I have serious issues with Vandalism of fire doors in the common areas of some (most) of my blocks of flats/maisonettes. A double door set usually has the life span of approximately 48 hours. Georgian wired gets smashed. Door closers are stolen. Handles are removed and generally the entire door will be smashed to bits. They will then cease to close properly (if they even close at all) with holes in.

Does any one have any bright ideas as to a risk assessed solution for perhaps removing them? The blocks are reminiscent of 1950' -60's, compartmentation is therefore good. All common areas are sterile. Concrete floor ceiling and roof. There are no common rooms or laundries.

Installation of a fire alarm system in the common part would be futile (stolen in seconds without doubt) All front doors to the individual flats are bomb proof. (in some cases I would imagine literally) We attempted to install an entry system to minimise vandalism (£30K) that lasted 4 hours. Seriously. Even the shutters to house the bins get nicked and sold for scrap.

Any ideas. My annual budget gets blown to pieces by these kind of pointless repairs.

Realistically I agree the necessity for fire doors. in these buildings. However, when you consider that a door set could get replaced quarterly. We are spending thousands per year to provide, overall, 8 days worth of passive protection.

Any help would be greatly received

Welcome to my world

[wee brian]

I understand your pain, but I dont think there is a reason to remove the fire protection. Places like this are more likely to have fires than more upmarket accomodation. You could try sprinkers in the flats but I doubt thats a viable option.

Somehow you have got to try and reduce the vandalism. I assume you have tried working with police/community groups/ youth clubs etc etc.

[Big T]

Absolutely. Workling very closely.

From my perspective they currently provide no protection. Fixing them invites more vandalism and it just seems a total waste of time. If it took a few months to occur it would be ok. But the reality is that it occurs in hours, not days.

Why waste money?

To provide the correct protection in the common areas we would have a new set of doors being installed every 3-4 days. Thats a conservative estimate.

The chances of the flats catching fire are indeed higher than the upmarket jobbies, but when you consider the entire common area is sterile whats the chances of fire smoke spread? The evacuation procedure is stay in place unless directly affected by fire.

[Rackman]

hello big T

My problem seems small compared to your,  I posted this yesterday

Hello to anyone out there.  Im new to the forum so go easy on me.

I work as a safety adviser for a housing association,  up until now the fire brigade have been more than happy with the fire risk assessments,  we have done for  our sheltered living schemes and care homes.  We have been moving through with our flats and masionettes. and have hit a small problem.

All our fire doors through the common areas have no fire door keep shut signs on them.  

AP Doc B  as you all are very aware tells us to have signs.

On looking around not just our flats but other associations flats,  I found only 2 doors out of about 100 to have a sign.

I now have the problem of convincing a director that he needs to buy possibly 400 + signs and have them fixed to the doors.

The signs could well just be ripped off by yobs  and may also encourage the yobs to wedge them open.

Any advice would be most welcome.

What about using CCTV to catch them,  we have reduced crime on our estates by using them, this might help you, Im beginning to think signs are a waste of time and money

[Big T]

Rackman,

I too work for a housing association, It may be worth exchanging details to see if there is any common ground we may share.

People seem to forget how different the risk we encouter is to a working environment.

I would love to have doors to stick signs on. Unfortunately they are all in pieces. or being sold.

I feel that the only solution is to remove them or keep repairing them. Either option is not ideal. Surely on a cost to risk ratio removing them is the right option?

At £500 to replace a double door set, scaled up to 10 sets per block. You are looking at £5000 per week to provide that protection. Thats £250,000 per year just to maintain one blocks fire doors times that by 10 blocks you get £2.5m. And we are better off spending that on other fire safety issues or complying with the decent homes regulations.

Whilst we obviously dont spend that quantity of money, it is a good representation of what it would cost to keep a building completely compliant for one year.

[saddlers]

I agree with Wee B, no level of provision will stop the vandalism, it is the people committing the vandalism that need to be altered, not the fire safety provisions within. I can appreciate that in certain situations some products can overcome a particular issue, but in this scenario, I fear there is no product that will resolve your situation.

You should not use the level of vandalism as justification for reducing the levels of fire safety.

My options would be on site security, cctv or chain gangs for the little swines causing the problems in the first place, I know which one I would like to see put in place!!!

[Big T]

Agreed, however the chains would be stolen.

Unfortunately it doesn't really help. My point is that when installed, they aren't functional, therefore they may as well be removed. If anything the damaged doors could hinder escape.

[afterburner]

Big T
give us a clue where this problem is. So we can avoid the whole area! Sounds like you are being damned if you do (expensive) and damned if you don't (you let us burn!).

[Tom Sutton]

Has resident caretakers been considered it worked in Toxteth but withdrawn later because of costs. He would have to be a black belt by the sound of it.

[fred]

Try persuading your CEO or Chairman of your Housing Association to meet with the Chairman of your local Police Authority together with your local Chief Police Officer - lock them in and don't let them out till they have a solution.

[cbfire999]

Sounds like a severe problem and very costly.  It is clear that financially it is going to be an on going problem and I can see you having to spend thousands of pounds remaining current.  Last year I delivered a fire awareness course to a private security firm that worked on estates similar to those described.  They appeared extremely well trained in their line of work and had some very unfriendly dogs that they took with them!!  Would it not be a cheaper option to employ these firms than throw thousands into repairs?  Just a thought!

[Brian Catton]

I agree with Saddlers that CCTV is the answer combined with on site security. The CCTV should be overt, protected, and have 24/7 recording linked to a security office. It is also worth a try using thie new system that has been installed in a town centre in the North East. When a person is spotted about to do something wrong a message is played across a PA system from a nearby speaker telling the wrongdoer that the evidence is being recorded.

Do not give up.  Carry out a cost to benefit analysis comparing past losses to the outlay on the new measures.

You would have to get your local crime prevemtion officer involved as well.

Best of luck but once again do not give up. There is a solution to every problem.

[jasper]

i agree with the cctv option, this has worked in a lot of schools I have assessed, also you can combine this with naming and shaming

[nearlythere]

I agree with Saddlers that CCTV is the answer combined with on site security. The CCTV should be overt, protected, and have 24/7 recording linked to a security office. It is also worth a try using thie new system that has been installed in a town centre in the North East. When a person is spotted about to do something wrong a message is played across a PA system from a nearby speaker telling the wrongdoer that the evidence is being recorded.

Do not give up.  Carry out a cost to benefit analysis comparing past losses to the outlay on the new measures.

You would have to get your local crime prevemtion officer involved as well.

Best of luck but once again do not give up. There is a solution to every problem.

Brian. CCTVs are only effective if they are fitted with a sniping rifle. Then using a joy stick from the comfort of a control room swivel chair you can pick off these human by-products and put them where they should be.
Don't knock it until you've tried it.