Fire alarm in cafe/B&B

[Midland Retty]

All the defintions in BS 5839 part 6 are for dwellings and whilst I have no particular adverse reaction to the use of a Pt 6 system I think it should be clear what is being dealt with.  British Standards are recommendations only and because of that are subject to challenge but it would be far better if the BSI came out and stated that they accept that Part 6 can be used in commercial premises.  I would not like to be the person trying to justify part 6 to a member of the judiciary with the author of the document as an expert witness telling the judiciary that it was only meant for dometic premises.

I see where you are coming from Jokar but I don't quite buy that!

At the end of the day a Part 1 or a Part 6 could be utilised in the premises quite justifiably.

The idea is to protect those at sleep. A Part 6 would be fine. Infact Ive just required one be fitted in a HIMO with a taxi office underneath (the part 6 will be extended to cover the taxi rank).

In terms of a part 6 provision probably going to amount to a BS5938 Part 6 LD2 Part C possibly.

Lets forget what the guidance says for a moment, can anyone actually give me a damn good reason why a part 6 wouldnt work in this situation?

Cheers

[PhilB]

Lets forget what the guidance says for a moment, can anyone actually give me a damn good reason why a part 6 wouldnt work in this situation?

Cheers

I can't Retty and surely the code huggers can take comfort that page 55 of the Sleeping Accomodation guide recommends LD2 systems for small B&Bs.

[Midland Retty]

I can't Retty and surely the code huggers can take comfort that page 55 of the Sleeping Accomodation guide recommends LD2 systems for small B&Bs.

Absolutely Phil - it helps me sleep soundly at night

[Dinnertime Dave]

I would not like to be the person trying to justify part 6 to a member of the judiciary with the author of the document as an expert witness telling the judiciary that it was only meant for domestic premises.

In my defence I would like to call the author of HM Government guide to sleeping accommodation. Let them fight it out then we will all have an answer.

Hope this doesn`t make me a code hugger!

[CivvyFSO]

A part 6 system of grade C and below doesn't seem to have a requirement for the cabling to be fire resistant.

I am all for using pt 6 systems in smaller premises and recommend them quite often, but will sometimes ask for FR cabling to be used as an extra precaution.

So in this example, chances are it will be a heat detector in the cafe, so conditions are "quite poor" before the alarm is going to sound. I would say that FR cabling would definitely be preferable in this scenario, but this with a part 6 should do the job it is supposed to do.

[jokar]

Perhaps Colin will break his silence on this forum and give us a definitive as he was the author of part 6.

[The Colonel]

I know a sparks who when installing Part 6 systems uses Firesure cable as when using 4 core it supplies power and interlinking and only has to feed one cable through therefore reducing work and cable. When taking into account costs the Firesure is only maginaly more expensive than two pvc cables but he spends less time feeding cables through and reduces labour cost.

I agree that the cables from kitchen and cafe will need that bit extra protection so the whole lot may just as well be FR cable.

[PhilB]

Perhaps Colin will break his silence on this forum and give us a definitive as he was the author of part 6.

Ah,...... Dear Colllin yes Jokar that would be useful.......come on Toddy where are you hiding?

[Midland Retty]

In my defence I would like to call the author of HM Government guide to sleeping accommodation. Let them fight it out then we will all have an answer.

Hope this doesn`t make me a code hugger!

So then... why is Part 6 mentioned in the guide ... is it a mis-print ?

And do you really think the B&B owner could be held liable if there was a fatal fire at his premises for the heaneous crime of following a guide? A government guide?

[val]

I believe the argument went along these lines.

Part 6 says quite clearly on the front cover "Code of practice for the design, installation and maintenance of fire detection and fire alarm systems in dwellings"
Bed and breakfast are often just that...dwellings with a couple of letting rooms?
But they are commercial establishments?
The risk is only marginally higher?
Oh hell...this guide is meant to adopt a 'REASONABLE' approach
Would a well fitted and maintained Part 6 system do the job?
Probably
Ummm!

Not exactly a finely argued engineering approach, based on extensive empirical evidence but heh, at the end of the day everything, in all the guides, seeks to adopt a reaonable solution based on pretty extensive experience and the government has signed them off.
Would I accept a Part 6 system in a dodgy, poorly managed three storey bed and breakfast? No.
Would I accept a Part 6 system in a well managed, with good doors three storey bed and breakfast? Probably.

Ain't non prescriptive risk assessment grand?

[The Colonel]

Unfortunatly the spanner in the works is the ground floor cafe with kitchen but even then the rsik should only be during the day, in theory the risk should be reduced when guests are sleeping unless they like an afternoon nap. Am I getting old or what

[PhilB]

Unfortunatly the spanner in the works is the ground floor cafe with kitchen but even then the rsik should only be during the day, in theory the risk should be reduced when guests are sleeping unless they like an afternoon nap. Am I getting old or what

Not  a very big spanner Colonel,as you correctly point out.......the greater risk....if you consider a B&B kitchen to be a greater risk, is at a time when persons are awake.

Yes Val, non prescriptive risk assessment is grand.......the alternative is code hugging and that just costs money but does little to enhance safety.........risk based solutions are the answer but they require a certain degree of competence on all fronts.

That in my opinion is the problem we all face.

[nearlythere]

I am at a loss to understand why some assessors believe that we should be in the business of trying to provide fire safety on the cheap. Codes of Practice are not the law but they are a means of ensuring that, if applied properly, owners and occupiers comply with the law.
The debate of whether a Pt1 or Pt6 system is appropriate is just one of those issues which makes me cringe. The code is quite clear as to the type of premises relevant to each and I for one much prefer to sleep soundly knowing I gave the best advise, and yes, as per the codes.  I consider myself a closet code hugger and proud of it.
If others want to live by the seat of their pants, thats their business but I wish they would not try to convert everybody to their way of thinking.
One has to remember that the purpose of fire safety is not to make a building look safe but to ensure that people do not die if it goes on fire.

[PhilB]

I am at a loss to understand why some assessors believe that we should be in the business of trying to provide fire safety on the cheap. Codes of Practice are not the law but they are a means of ensuring that, if applied properly, owners and occupiers comply with the law.
The debate of whether a Pt1 or Pt6 system is appropriate is just one of those issues which makes me cringe. The code is quite clear as to the type of premises relevant to each and I for one much prefer to sleep soundly knowing I gave the best advise, and yes, as per the codes.  I consider myself a closet code hugger and proud of it.
If others want to live by the seat of their pants, thats their business but I wish they would not try to convert everybody to their way of thinking.
One has to remember that the purpose of fire safety is not to make a building look safe but to ensure that people do not die if it goes on fire.

Some assessors and some FSOs can interpret codes of practice and then apply common sense and professional judgement to make the building safe without placing undue burdens on business. Some clearly cannot or will not.

I take it you only hug certain codes as the CLG guide recommends LD2 for small B&Bs.

[nearlythere]

Your Honour, I studied the Code of Practice prepared by the Technical Committee represented by the following :-

British Fire Protection Systems Assiciation Ltd,
British Fire Services Association,
Britiah Telecommunications PLC,
Chartered Institute of Building Services Engineers,
Chief and Assistant Chief Fire Officers' Assiciation,
Department of Health and Social Security,
Dept of the Environment (British Research Establishment, Fire Research Station),
Dept of the Environment (Property Services Agency),
Dept of Transport (Marine Directorate),
Electrical Contractors' Association,
Electrical Installation Equipment Manufacturers' Association (BEAMA Ltd),
Fire Insurers' Research and Testing Organisation (FIRTO),
Fire Officers Committee,
Fire Protection Association,
Home Office,
Institute of Electrical Engineers,
Institute of Fire Engineers,
Ministry of Defence,
Royal Institue of British Architects,
National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting,
Society of Fire Protection Engineers and
Trades Union Congress.

and thought that it was too onerous and expensive so here's what I did............