Chrome/steel fire extinguishers

[Underground]

Please can you help me with my understanding of the acceptance of Chrome fire extinguishers.  I thought they were outlawed when the 'all red' rules came in, but many companies still sell them.  I have found the following on a web site selling them, but am unsure if they should be accepted by fire brigades in an audit process.  Your comments are appreciated.

"Where Is The Kitemark?

But, beauty always seems to be accompanied with problems and, as stainless steel fire extinguishers are not red, they cannot claim to be manufactured in accordance with BS EN3. BS EN 3-7:2004, Part 16.1 requires 95% of the body to be red).

So, is this a problem?

The stainless steel fire extinguisher has been manufactured for many years and we sell more today than before the BS EN3 came into being! By law, extinguishers must have the CE Mark (Pressure Equipment Directive). BS EN3 is, technically, a recommendation and, as our extinguishers are made with exactly the same components as the red ones that pass all the BSEN3 Kitemark tests, they are generally accepted."

[kurnal]

There is a duty to make adequate provision for first aid fire fighting. The chrome ones do everything as well as the red ones and theres nothing illegal about them. But best practice is to use extinguishers correctly colour coded in accordance with the internationally recognised system that way everybody knows what to expect when they go to select an extinguisher.

So no problem till someone gets electrocuted by using your silver extinguisher on an electrical fire or injured using water on an oil fire. Then they try and sue you for not making it clear which extinguisher was which and you will have to do battle with some smart ass solicitor to prove to the judge you did everything reasonable to compensate like training and signage.

[Underground]

Surely the same can be said for the red ones - you still need to give the proper training regardless of the main body colour.
I see what you are saying though - it is down to best practice - so I therefore suspect that Fire Brigades will want to see best practice but cannot enforce it.

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

To Confirm some information on these:
Chrome  extinguishers are acceptable under BS5423 and can be tested by engineers to BS5306.

They do not comply to BSEN in that they do not pass the crush test and obviously do not comply to the recommended colour coding. They are manufactured in the UK and carry a CE mark and they are primarily supplied to upmarket establishments for aesthetic purposes

They should however be clearly identified by signs and notices.

[wee brian]

Interesting that they have a CE mark but conform to a BS. I'd be interested to see the declaration of conformity.

[wee brian]

OK - I was bored so I looked some stuff up.

The CE marking is required under the Pressure Equipment Directive (PED). Made law in the UK by The the Pressure Equipment Regulations 1999. Reg 7(3)(c) requires a CE Mark.

EN1866:2005 "Mobile fire extinguishers". Is listed in the OJ as a harmonised standard for the purposes of the PED.

Annex ZA of EN1866:2005 sets out which clauses of the standard are mandatory in order to meet the directive and affix the CE Mark. Clause 6.10 is listed as corresponding to essential requirement 3.3 (Marking and Labelling).

6.10 says (wait for it)

6.10 Identification
6.10.1 Colour
The colour of extinguisher bodies shall be red, but in addition to the marking, a zone of colour of area up to 5 % of the external area of the body may be used to identify the extinguishing media in accordance with national specifications.

Answers on a postcard?

[afterburner]

seems strange that chrome or stainless steel extinguishers are specified for aesthetic purposes and then the aesthetics are enhanced by the appropriates signs and notices indicating where the extinguisher is, what it is and what it is intended for. Unless, of course, equally aesthetic signs and notices are used, which would be at variance from the normal signs & notices.

[Goodsparks]

So no problem till someone gets electrocuted by using your silver extinguisher on an electrical fire or injured using water on an oil fire.

As others have said, some manufacturers go as far as to say they comply with the requirements of BSEN3 1996 with the exception of colour. (Firemaster) Simple really, Install 6 litre stainless steel foam sprays, most of which have pased the 35kv conductivity of discharge test. Cost is about a fiver more than a 9 litre water and the fire rating ,B (obviously :-) and A is in many cases better (21a as opposed to 13a) all of our fire points have a polished alu. 2kg CO2 and a stainless 6L AFFF spray, training is simple as every fire point throughout the common areas is identical, short of spraying yourself in the eye or discharging sufficient afff extinguishers to form a puddle between some burning electrical equipment and the operator, its idiot proof. (and we have a few of those too)

Many extinguisher suppliers will either shy away from supplying stainless steel extinguishers (they don`t corrode) or will sell them at a hugely inflated premium, on the basis that they won`t be selling you any more extinguishers for another 30 years or so.

Just make sure its in your RA.

Paul

[John Dragon]

We sell Amerex stainless steel (red) water extinguishers at £73.00 plus VAT, less some discount if we like you!
10 yr warranty, the best quality water extinguishers you can buy.
Can get em in polished finish if required, but have never been asked.

[kurnal]

Is the Amerex range CE marked?
I know many american extinguishers sold in the DIY sheds are not CE marked.

[John Dragon]

Hi Kurnal,
Don't confuse Amerex with Kidde and all the other cheaper american stuff sold in the sheds. Amerex is by far the best quality kit you will ever see.
 look at   http://www.amerexfire.co.uk/water.htm

[AnthonyB]

EN1866 has nothing to do with portable extinguishers and covers trolley extinguishers, i.e your 20/50/75kg powders, 50 litre foams, 10/20/30/45 kg CO2s etc.

The colour has nothing to do with use on the wrong fire - the core principle in EN3 to ensure the correct extinguisher for the risk is used is the fire class pictogram system on the label (which is flawed as it does not include the electrical or fat fire symbols which are a UK derivation - in other EU states you would need to be able to read the language of the country of origin as electrical warnings etc are consigned to supplementary text)

The Red part of EN3 is based on red being the European colour for signs & signals relating to fire protection, i.e. for the user to decide "this red cylinder must be a fire extinguisher" not what's in it or what it is for.

With good staff training & good ID signage (which is also made in brass & stainless steel these days) there shouldn't be an issue, especially as anyone doing training should be focusing on the pictograms only & not the colour (quite legal to use no colour coding at all & be BSEN3 kitemarked, our 5% coding is a relaxation contained in a seperate BS)

I was quite happy to spec up & supply stainless water sprays & CO2's for the new Birmingham Town Hall as suitability for risk and minimal secondary damage was more important - all the staff are trained as well.

Amerex stuff, around since the mid 90's in the UK is very good & durable kit and has always complied to BS 5423 & now EN3, although they do unpainted versions of the waters & foams (which are all stainless steel) and you can on special order get chrome powders shipped over.At one point to their annoyance their stuff was 'cloned' by Abtex in the UK in the ate 80's/early 90s, but it was very inferior and they soon ceased to be.

Stainless needn't be dear, we can churn out Lloyds Register accredited CE/PED compliant stuff in the £50-60 area (Chinese you see like most extinguishers - your £150 Chubb & £300 Nu Swift extinguishers are also from China now, costing them only a tenner a shot!)

[wee brian]

That's what I like about Anthony B - actually knows what he is talking about..

If I get a chance I'll go through the same trawl for EN 3 . my guess is colour is in the Annex ZA.  I'm not bothered I like the shiny ones but I wonder if the CE mark is 100% correct.

[John Dragon]

Stainless needn't be dear, we can churn out Lloyds Register accredited CE/PED compliant stuff in the £50-60 area (Chinese you see like most extinguishers - your £150 Chubb & £300 Nu Swift extinguishers are also from China now, costing them only a tenner a shot!)

Still nothing can touch Amerex - very few of the cheap stainless extinguishers have stainless operating levers, and so are not much use in damp areas, etc.  most of the chinese stainless extinguishers develope rust on their welds (some have been known to leak after a few years).
However, due to human nature, not many clients will buy the best when a cheap alternative is offered. We therefore sell a lot more mild steel than stainless.

[AnthonyB]

I agree the US stainless stuff is far better than the PED approved Chinese stuff, but the cost differntial is so much that 99% of clients only look at the price - I know whose stuff I'd like to see used, but it doesn't work like that in reality.