One Year On!

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

I'd just like to say Happy Anniversary now it's a year today since Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order came into force (in England and Wales that is!)

So, what are peoples views?

[wee brian]

Patchy enforcement, Some over zealous inspectors, Some "consultants" coning people into buying kit they don't need.

No real change from what we had before.

[Chris Houston]

No major changes, some increased awareness from customers, generaly apathy.

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

Do you think the patchy enforcement is due to enforcers not being comfortable with the definitions of Articles and how they apply or is it that some areas are more pro-ctive with enforcement?

[Big T]

It was designed to bulster another British service industry. It succeeded. It would be interesting to know how much the industry has grown this year

[kurnal]

I think many brigades are more interested in home risk assessments than enforcing the fire safety order and resources reflect this in those brigades. And many of the older officers are coming up to retirement and taking their experience with them.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Do you think the patchy enforcement is due to enforcers not being comfortable with the definitions of Articles and how they apply or is it that some areas are more pro-ctive with enforcement?

From a personal point of view it’s both, the relatively easy bit is the fire safety side. An inner room is still an inner room and there are only so many ways you can deal with dead end corridor whether you’re using the FP Act, Workplace Regs or Fire Safety Order.

The problems have occurred when you try writing the notices, choosing the correct Article etc. Very early on we identified that if written using the nationally agreed standard paragraphs the notices didn’t make much sense. Jobs that would take 60mins were taking a day. This is changing with experience. Who’s to blame for this? I lay the blame at the poor training given, I and most of my colleagues didn’t need to be told what to look for when carrying out an inspection we needed to know how the legislation worked and experience in writing Notices, Action Plans etc.

If I go back to my Moreton courses we spent loads of time analysing the FP Act/WP Regs. Pretty boring at the time but I left knowing how they worked or how they didn’t.    

Yes some brigades are more proactive than others, I’ve been told to avoid certain type of premises because we haven’t the infrastructure in place to deal with what we might find. Yes it’s Frightening

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

My experience is that we never sent out alot of Notices under the old legislation so therefore were not experienced.

In my personal and most humble opinion, I think the Order makes enforcement more straightforward so more notices are being served ...... a process which will become quicker the more you do it as there are examples to work from.
It is important that the right Articles are quoted and the content accurate as ultimately, the notice is a legal document and must be "technically" correct to stand in a court. Again, this will come with experience.

If you come across a premises that isn't on the list, do you avoid it then?

Sooner or later, you'll have to tackle them!!

[Dinnertime Dave]

If you come across a premises that isn't on the list, do you avoid it then?

Sooner or later, you'll have to tackle them!!

No I don`t. The infrastructure I refer to is officers who have the ability and the authority to prohibit the use, whilst I`m not the type who gets a thrill out of prosecuting dealing with complaints with one hand tied behind your back isn`t a great feeling.

Yes one day we will have to deal with these places, I think that some brigades think we will sit on the fence to see what others do.

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

Ah I see.

Surely if you're at a premises and you call for another officer for a potential prohibition you are supported?

[PhilB]

I think many brigades are more interested in home risk assessments than enforcing the fire safety order and resources reflect this in those brigades. And many of the older officers are coming up to retirement and taking their experience with them.

Unfortunately Kurnal many FRS don't appear to be that interested in putting the required resources into enforcing the Order.

They are driven by other targets such as home fire safety visits. Whilst community fire safety is of course worthwhile, if the Order is not effectively enforced we will see a decline in fire safety standards and an increase in fire deaths in the workplaces,  particulary in hotels.

[Bill G]

Do you think that as a public service we are being set up for a separation of the fire safety enforcement from the operational side . With FS enforcement being dealt with by a national enforcement agency. With this agency only reacting after the event . i.e. currently we plan to have 30 FSO's where a few years ago there were 60 plus officers . Can't you just see some clever clog in Whitehall analysing the figures and saying why have over 100 FSO in each geographical area of the country when preferably 10 would do it. Why are there so many FSO compared to HSE environmental HO etc.  I give it 3-5 years!! Can’t you just see the average Brigade willingly getting rid of enforcement – as it’s technical and the management don’t really understand it . With all of these enforcement notices and prohibition notices being issued the average Brigade don’t want the bad publicity –

OK so my comments may be a bit of a wind up – but , any body willing to make a bet on it !

[potter 2]

The biggest thing ive noticed is that all the premises that RRO applys to have a sticker banning smoking on the front door and its enforced in the building by the "responsible person".But on the inside no fire risk assessment what have the smoking police got that I havent,

[The Colonel]

The smoking police has specific law and requlations with on the spot fines.

Fire safety has guidance, risk assessment and we have to wait for case law

[messy]

For most risks, the RR(FS)O is proving adequate, even with it's cumbersome enforcement procedures.

I really do think the Govt missed a trick by failing to adopt fixed penalty notices for the less serious/minor 'offences'. But to be fair, they did approach both FBU and CFOA with a proposal of FPNs, but they were against the idea so HM Govt dropped it.

It does seem odd that I can get a FPN for dropping litter, allowing my dog to mess the pavement, park on a yellow line, and even (where I live) by placing an unlicensed an 'A' board advert outside my business!. Meanwhile, FS IOs have to jump through several perilous hoops (evidence gathering & PACE etc) before any prosecution is possible for a serious H&S offence - it's mad!

However my main gripes are sleeping risks where the lower level of 'supervision' by enforcing authorities (compared to the FPA) will inevitabally lead to a reduction in standards. Add this to the new inspection, sorry, audit frequencies and I reckon we'll see a few more Newquays in the next few years