Open Plan

[jasper]

I am trying to deal with a difficult one and was wondering if anyone had any similar experience. I have been looking at a two storey restaurant with a kitchen on each level, each level has on escape route to the rear past the kitchen (in protected corridors) and to the front the lower ground floor has to go up through the ground floor within an open staircase (the premises is basically on a hill) the problem I foresee is that a fire in the lower ground floor kitchen which is open so you can see them cooking has no ansul system and no auto roller shutters, therefore smoke can enter the lower ground floor via the kitchen and spread upstairs without any means of stopping it. Also I feel this to be a risk to the fire service as this would become a large two storey fire with difficult access to the lower ground floor as to the rear it is within an enclosed courtyard with escape adequate width of escape for occupants. Any ideas would be greatfully received
Jasp

[PhilB]

Doesn't sound too scary to me Jasper. If a fire occurs in the lower ground floor presumably people can turn their back and walk to the alternative escape route.

Yes fire will spread upstairs but will be preceeded by visible smoke, presumably the occupants are awake and can turn their back and walk to the alternative exit.

Can you provide more info regarding travel distances etc.

[jasper]

Hi Phil, the escape distance to a place of ultimate safety is 20M, the place still has heat detectors therefore the upper ground floor could be alerted slower, also that there is nothing really to stop the fire spread from the lower ground upwards

[nearlythere]

Don't think it really matter about fire spread jasper (doesn't seem big enough for compartmentation) provided that, as PhilB stated, people can turn their backs and make their way to protected route or final exit. 20M to me is OK in an open design alert situation.
I would be more concerned about your comment regarding the enclosed rear courtyard.
Is it enclosed in that there is no way out unless through the restaurant and if so is this the area that the rear exits discharge into?
I had a similar premises, with rear protected escape routes to place of safety, and did not see a problem at all. The front main entrance/exit was at mezzanine level served by an open 1/2 stairway from upper and lower level. They wanted to initially escape through the kitchen on the first floor rear but they were persuaded to provided a protected corridor from public area.
Very nice place and great food as I found out AFTER.

[kurnal]

H Jasper
Has the lower ground floor got an access /  exit direct to outside without going upstairs? If it has, and provided you dont have to pass the kitchen to reach this escape route there should not be too much of a problem, whether  for means of escape or for access by firefighters so long as there is access and egress from the courtyard.

If you have to pass the kitchen to reach the ground floor escape route and the alternative is up the stairs then it could be possible for a single fire to cut off both routes and in this case something would need to be done to sort it out unless travel distances are very low say 12m to the nearest exit in these circumstances.

Probably the biggest risk is to business continuity in the event of a fire downstairs- because of the lack of fire separation the smoke damage alone would probably put him out of business for months.

[jasper]

thanks for the replies so far, to clarify further - downstairs there is an exit to the rear courtyard which occupants can exit, however to exit to the rear you have to pass the kitchen with the alternative upstairs via the upper-ground floor

[jokar]

I am slightly confused here, can they enter both floors from street level?

Can they exit the rear courtyard via a gate or is it an enclosed space?

Is there 1 entrances and 1 exit at ecah level, (not the same door)?

[kurnal]

Sounds like a bit of a problem to me then jasper- if deep fat frying takes place downstairs there could be potential for both routes to quickly become impassable.

Ban the fryers, install ansul or wet chemical installation, enclose the kitchen, or even install downstands or drop down curtain round the extract?

[jasper]

jokar -  the upper ground floor exits at the front on ground level, with the rear down an external staircase to the courtyard; the lower ground floor exits to the rear down below the upper ground stairs to the courtyard exit, with the front up an open staircase through the upper ground floors front exit (I hope this explains this)

[PhilB]

So on both floors you can turn your back and walk away from a fire to an alternative exit....I'm still not very scared Jasper...could you e-mail me a simple plan?

If you can turn your back on a fire and walk to an alternative exit you are usually at little risk.