Provision of a Hydrant?

[Keith Tarbuck]

Firstly, I have looked back through the prevoius pages to see if this question has been raised earlier, with out success, so here goes.

We have just opened a new (August 2007) student accommodation complex which has been fitted with Fire Mains (DRY). The inlet valves can be accessed by a Fire & Rescue applienace within 18 metres, they can drive right next the inet valves. there are what I would call a ring main system with 1 inlet feeding 3 Stacks and 4 on the other inlet.

This project has been built in line with ADB (B5) 2000 edition.

Where as I fully understand about the Dry Riser system am struggling to find out what the maxium distance a hydrant can be located from the Fire Mains inlet valves? ADB (B5) 2000 page 101 16.6 "guidance on other aspects etc, should be obtained from section 2 and 3 of BS 5306; part 1: 1976, this I believe has been replaced?

I have tried the internet (no luck)

I managed to find something from north of the border Scotalnd which said "70" metres?

In The building Regulations 2000 Documnet B2 2007 edition it explians about "provision of private hydrants" and states "within 90 metres" with a building provided with fire mains.

This has all come about from a visit from the local Fire and Rescue Service (a new building?), the Fire Officer highlighted that he requested a hydrant within 25 metres of the inlat valves, this has not been done and the nearest hydrant is 45/50 metre away.

We have today recieved a letter from the said Fire Officer and this is where I am really confused, he makes reference to "failure to comply with the 45 metre guidance in Approved Document B (B5), my understanding of this section is the provision for vehicle access?

It would be very much apprecaited for some advice.

[kurnal]

All parts of the floor area should be within 45m hose distance from a riser outlet.
The appliance should be able to park within  18m and in sight of an inlet.
There should be a hydrant or water source within 90m of the appliance parking position.
The requirement for the hydrant only came about as a result of the new Approved Document B from April 6 this year. It is more than likely that your block was built to the older versioon which did not make this recommendation- if so it is not enforcible.

The risers should be designed and installed to BS9990 2006.

With those multiple stacks I feel sorry for the firefighters though- checking all outlets before charging the riser will be a nightmare. And draining down again afterwards!

[nearlythere]

"We have today recieved a letter from the said Fire Officer and this is where I am really confused, he makes reference to "failure to comply with the 45 metre guidance in Approved Document B (B5), my understanding of this section is the provision for vehicle access?"

Ascertain if you are REQUIRED to comply with the quidance or if it is a RECOMMENDATION regardless of how "strongly" the recommendation is?
It is important that people understand the difference between the two. Many do not. I have known people to spend (waste) thousands of pounds because they thought a "recommendation" was a requirement.
If the FO says that it is a REQUIREMENT under legislation to comply with the 25M guidance then write to the Service concerned asking it to confirm this.

[Keith Tarbuck]

Many thanks for your response, the 45 metres is achievable from all outlets, with regards to the stacks the whole "ring main" will take approx 1 minute to fully charge (1500 litres of water to charge one system), so I believe by the time the Fire Fighters have reached any on outlet it will be charged, yes agree with the draining.

I will double check reagrding the wording but am sure it was only a request to have a new one put within 25 metres?

Again Many thanks

Keith

[Dinnertime Dave]

I think the officer concerned is being more than a little pedantic and even overstepping the mark, and that from a fellow inspecting officer. The Building Control Officer enforces Building Regs not the FSO and does the fire officer really want another hydrant closer than 45/50m away.

He/she will want you to take the fire to him next

As always kurnal gives the correct answer as I understand it.

I’ve recently had a similar situation dealt with it by negotiation between the developer, my brigades water officer and myself, during the meetings I did learnt that if it is public land the water authority will install a hydrant on their mains for approx 700 pounds payable by the fire authority, if it is on private land in extreme circumstances we could  offer to pay for a hydrant and cover maintenance.  

Up to August 2007 it was felt that there was no legislation allowing us to enforce. I would welcome anyone’s views if this is correct or has changed since. In the end we paid for one, the developer paid for another.

[Chris Houston]

I survey properties day in day out.  I wish every building had a hydrant within 50m, but I can advise that most don't.  My benchmark is for a 100mm hydrant within 150m and about 5% of times I don't even see that.

[kurnal]

OK Keith but from the firefighters point of view, their appliance tank only contains 1800 lites if brim full.

So that only leaves 300 litres of useable water for firefighting until they supplement their tank supply with a hydrant feed or another appliance. This may be where they are coming from.

It is one of the  disadvantages that arise when a number of dry risers are fed from a common inlet.

[Dinnertime Dave]

OK Keith but from the firefighters point of view, their appliance tank only contains 1800 lites if brim full.

So that only leaves 300 litres of useable water for firefighting until they supplement their tank supply with a hydrant feed or another appliance. This may be where they are coming from.

It is one of the  disadvantages that arise when a number of dry risers are fed from a common inlet.

Most of us on arrival would only have a guess at how many litres of water it will take to charge the system, so we would supplement the supply as a matter of course. I agree that the system could have been designed to be more user friendly. However, the original post was regarding the provision of a hydrant nearer than the existing 45/50m - Totally unreasonable.

[Mike Buckley]

Looking at ADB  the only reference to 45m I can see when taking about fire mains is the maximum distance from the fire main OUTLET inside the building. When ADB talks about the distance to the inlet then the pump must get to within 18m and in sight of the inlet and the hydrant must be within 90m of the inlet.

I suggest a letter to the Officer asking him to clarify exactly which paragraphs of B5 he is refering to.

As far as I can see provided you are within building regs the fire officer can ask for a hydrant within any distance he likes but I suggest you ask the brigade to pay for it.

[nemodadog]

Looking at ADB  the only reference to 45m I can see when taking about fire mains is the maximum distance from the fire main OUTLET inside the building. When ADB talks about the distance to the inlet then the pump must get to within 18m and in sight of the inlet and the hydrant must be within 90m of the inlet.

I suggest a letter to the Officer asking him to clarify exactly which paragraphs of B5 he is refering to.

As far as I can see provided you are within building regs the fire officer can ask for a hydrant within any distance he likes but I suggest you ask the brigade to pay for it.

I was also puzzled by the 'requirement' for a hydrant within 25metres of the inlet valve..having checked ADB, i cant see any requirement other than having a hydrant within 100metres of the building and vehicle access to within 18metres of the inlet valve., so i am inclined to think this is the FO's 'preference' rather than a requirement.