Author Topic: Key Skills Training  (Read 39046 times)

Midland Retty

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« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2007, 03:39:51 PM »
Missing the point fellas...if you have to cheat the PQAs to get in what is the point? Yes you can cheat at alot of exams buit not in the same way you cheat PQA's where you have to be insincere or lie because you have a know what the "right answer should be" just tio impress someone higher up in the chain.

I do stand corrected FIREFTRM you were right about the psychometric test - I spoke to the failed recruit earlier to get the story again.

Yes they were indeed 5 multi choice answers  - she selected "neither agree or disagree" So why is it the HR team told her this specifically went against her... (as well as a few other areas) Are the people whio are supposed to be implementing the tests getting it all wrong at brigade level?.

Yes again you are right Firetrm that RDS should be recruited same way as WT... but you asked why people don't seem committed well i gave you the answer. This is the real world... What do you mean "we dont want non committed people" what you have said is discriminatory... they were the only ones intrested in joining for goodness sake do you not know how dammed hard it is to recruit retained staff.

Yes of course we dont want some sexist,racist crude, unsociable, unsuitable or unpresentable person joining but the reasons these new recruits gave up was because (and to quote them) "they find the whole process bewildering"

PQAs in their current state do not give a true reflection of the character of the person applying. The new recruits we had were a paramedic (previously RDS firefighter at our station) a farm hand (very young enthusiastic and switched on - good with his hands knows his way round mechanics and machinery) The butchers son and a wholetime firefighter.

And finally yes we have had these people down at station to try and help them... did you not see the comment I made about our Station Commanders coaching them through the application form?


SO FOR THE LAST TIME WILL SOMEONE TELL ME HOW ON EARTH A SERVING FIREFIGHTER WHO IS WHOLETIME WITH ONE BRIGADE CAN NOT PASS A PQA TO BECOME A FIREFIGHTER?

LUDICROUS!!

Offline johno67

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« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2007, 04:49:08 PM »
Hi Midland,

Is it the PQA's that you believe to be flawed or the way in which they are assessed (or both)?

Reading through the elements of each PQA I can't see anything that I wouldn't like to see in a Firefighter being taken on by my Brigade. Do you disagree with this?

I also took the online test, and had a couple of areas in which I was wanting. I looked at the different elements of the PQA's concerned, and modified my answers to meet the criteria. This highlighted to me the fact that my behaviour in a couple of the areas wasn't necessarily what the Fire Service were looking for. I would therefore modify my behaviour in future to that required. If I dropped back to my old ways once I had been employed it would be picked up and addressed through personal management as underperfomance.
The PQA's aren't something you need just to get into the job, they are the qualities and attributes that you should be displaying continuously.

Again, I would like to see clear guidance issued on what the PQA's mean, and I would like to see the evidence that people give checked thoroughly. I also think it might be more appropriate to run Assessment Development Centres at the entry stage to check that applicants do conform to the PQA's in practice.

Just because someone doesn't meet the PQA's today, it doesn't mean that they will never be suitable. They have to address it through development.

I think that if I applied now to rejoin the Service I would probably be unsuccessful. What I would do is take the feedback that was given to address my shortcomings, develop myself (hopefully with the help of others) and reapply.

I have had to go through this very same process for a recent promotion, and that is exactly what happened to me. I addressed what I needed to and passed the next process, no complaints.

Again, as I said in my earlier posting, no I don't think all Firefighters would or should be allowed back in once they retire.
I do have real sympathy for pokkav, but as I understand it, it's not a case of one strike and you are out, so if you really want it you will try again.
However, there are some Firefighters out there that I wouldn't re-employ if there was no one else left (if that was my decision to make), and they got through the old system comfortably.

I also understand that it's not an ideal situation with retained as in some places it is hard to recruit anyway. It does however leave the way open for retained Firefighters to make the case for transfer onto wholetime stations as they meet the PQA's for both Retained and Wholetime (if indeed they wish to, we only have one retained station so please forgive my ignorance in this area).
Likes to play Devil's Advocate

Midland Retty

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« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2007, 09:32:36 AM »
Hiya John

I totally agree with what you have said.

Im not sure if it is an interpretation problem at Brigade level that has meant PQAs have fallen down as FIRETRM's explanation of how the PQAs work in his Brigade seems to differ to the two brigades i work for.


Im not against PQAs and I think if they work in they way you explained which make you think about any personal failings then great.

I also think your idea of an "assessment development centre" was a damn good one - it would really work in teh two brigades we work for.


But its is evident from the feedback from the recruits, and serving officers who have gone for promotion that there are serious failings and has been produced to please some "tick box" so and sos in whitehall rather than get through the right type of recruits or people for the job.

Offline johno67

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« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2007, 10:10:13 AM »
Quote from: Midland Retty
But its is evident from the feedback from the recruits, and serving officers who have gone for promotion that there are serious failings and has been produced to please some "tick box" so and sos in whitehall rather than get through the right type of recruits or people for the job.
Agreed.

I don't have any involvement in the assessment of potential recruit Firefighters into the organisation, but I do have experiance of the PQA's used in the promotion system (from both sides of the table).

As far as I can see, the application forms and interviews, testing against the PQA's, currently have very little credibility, as people can and often do make up stories to fit what is required. It seems to be a case of those who know how the system works will get through, and those who don't won't. That's why I believe that everything the candidates present needs evidence to confirm that it has taken place, with the evidence being thoroughly checked.

I think the scenario questions do have a place, for the reasons I have previously mentioned.

I think the only part of the assessment that has real credibility at present, is the Assessment Develpment Centre (ADC), where you are actually required to display the PQA's in practice. I appreciate that ADC's are a huge drain on resources, but we are employing people that may be working for the organisation for 40+ years, so I think it is an investment worth making.

It should be borne in mind, that this is a relatively new system, and, still being in its infancy is nowhere near the finished product. I appreciate that it is of no comfort to those who have fallen foul of it, but through evaluation it will get better.
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Midland Retty

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« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2007, 10:25:59 AM »
Hi John

You've just said in good old plain english really what I have been trying to say over four posts.

The only thing I think is contencious is the Butcher's Son I mentioned who wants to join the brigade.

FIRETRM mentioned that he would be able to demonstrate "diversity in the community" by virtue of the fact that he deals with customers young and old, rich or poor, some may have dietry requirement etc.

I have off the record been told this doesn't score as highly as dealing with ethnic mionorities, which I feel is totally wrong. The young lad lives and works in a community which consists almost exclusively of white (caucasian) residents.

So long as anomolies like the one above and similar contencious issues are dealt with using common sense I really don't have an issue with PQAs.

The National Point of Entry written test questions are another contencious area, but thats for another discussion at another time.

Offline toidi

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« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2007, 10:30:40 AM »
Fireftrm

One of my fromer colleagues told me that they had around 12 trainees up to get their final assessment and portfolios or evidence books checked before they went onto competent rate of pay.
The trainees had to do a 2 day practical assessment which included basic Firefighting skills such as BA wearing, Ladder pitching and general combined drills.

Either 7 or 8 of them Failed the practical assessment part of it on major risk critical points.

However all their evidence that they presented was satisfactory and could have been signed off.

This means that they could demonstrate competence in writing which is where Fireftrm and a number of other people who have posted on here seem to find really important, but they cannot actually carry out the tasks practically, which is where I would prefer them to be able to do it!

And I am being accused of "having my head in the sand"

Services nowadays are putting too much importance on gathering written evidence at the expense of actually being able to carry out the tasks and are creating cultures where Trainees find it more important to get books signed off than being able to do it practically.

I'll give it 5 years and we will see these trainees with little or no practical experience but loads of evidence becoming Crew and Watch Managers being totally exposed at  incidents.

This is what is really happening in Fire Services and this comes from people who are doing the job and whose "heads aren't  in the sand"

Offline johno67

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« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2007, 12:35:56 PM »
Midland,

I have spoken to the guy who organises the assessments within the Brigade that I work for, and he says that the PQA for Commitment to Diversity and Intergrity covers the wider area, i.e. that the indidual understands and respects diversity and adopts a fair and ethical approach to others (as it states on the PQA). It is not just about mixing with different ethnic or religous groups it is about diversity in general.

If it is the case that the Brigade are marking higher for mixing with different ethnic groups, then I would suggest that they have misinterpreted the guidelines on how they should be assessing against the standards, or they are trying to address a particular issue within their organisation.

If you look at the BARS (Behaviourally Anchored Rating Scales)

http://www.ipds.co.uk/adc/

that are used for marking candidates against the Supervisory Role (Crew Managers and Watch Managers (can't find those for Firefighters)) you will see in the Commitment to Diversity and Integrity PQA that you wouldn't need to have mixed with different religious or ethnic groups to obtain full marks (4 is the maximum/ideal, 1 is the lowest/severe development needs)

The assessors will however, work as part of a regional group where moderation is carried out to ensure that they assess to the same standards. So I can't answer this one I'm afraid. Maybe it's something the Representative Bodies need to take up with the Brigade in question?
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Offline Dinnertime Dave

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« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2007, 12:51:38 PM »
Quote from: toidi
Fireftrm

I'll give it 5 years and we will see these trainees with little or no practical experience but loads of evidence becoming Crew and Watch Managers being totally exposed at  incidents.
In 5 years these trainees will be station managers.

Offline fireftrm

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« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2007, 09:38:52 PM »
Quote from: toidi
One of my fromer colleagues told me that they had around 12 trainees up to get their final assessment and portfolios or evidence books checked before they went onto competent rate of pay.
The trainees had to do a 2 day practical assessment which included basic Firefighting skills such as BA wearing, Ladder pitching and general combined drills.

Either 7 or 8 of them Failed the practical assessment part of it on major risk critical points.

However all their evidence that they presented was satisfactory and could have been signed off.

This means that they could demonstrate competence in writing which is where Fireftrm and a number of other people who have posted on here seem to find really important, but they cannot actually carry out the tasks practically, which is where I would prefer them to be able to do it!

And I am being accused of "having my head in the sand"
No you aren't, however the managers of those people stand accused of being totally incompetent, unprofessional and deserving of some severe disciplinary measures. They are stealing money from their employers, they are being paid to determine the competence of their staff and to develop them for the job they must do, clearly they are taking the money and not doingt he job. If you read my posts, whichg you obviously haven't done, then you will find nowhere where I have said that competence can be demonstrated in writing. It can't, it has to be demonstrated by actions, the writing is simply the record of that. So if the record is false then the assessor has to be responsible for that. If you have read my posts then you have a basic skill (key skill) need in literacy as you ahev totally misinterptreted what was written, as no mention of competence through writing was ever mentioned. Contact your local college or FBU learning representative (they do deal with retired members too) for help with this need.

What we have now is managers/officers who do not thinkt hey need to manage and do not do the job, they are frauds. That is why the Ffs got as far as they did withouty having the practical skills. The NOS/NVQ do not mean that old fashioned practical skills are no longer need, quite the opposite, lack of understanding and laziness are often the root cause, but the NOS gets the blame and usually by the very people who are failing to do the job they are actually paid for.

I hate to think where these prior colleagues of yours work, I hope nowhere near me, added to the lying, cheating son of your friend it is a service made up of frauds who are getting paid decent money and not doing the job they are contracted to do. God knows what they make of a fire.

Midland I wholeheaterdly agree with johno67, the PQA does not score any higher for ethnic minorities, that isn't just my service it is the national firefighter selection test. Ours is regional and certainly examples of difference based on age, sex, sexual orientation, social background, race and religon would be equally useful. It is not the example that is scored it is the words the applicant uses. That is the scoring sytem, there is no other. You say the NFST is another contentious issue, well maybe but then again that is exactly the process you have been discussing already!

That you have had comments from people who have failed the system, be they recruits or those going for next role does not surprise me, I have heard many such comments myself. I have sat next to colleagues telling me how stupid certain questiosn were and that their answers were x and that they had been told that y was actually wanted. As I listened I had to contain my anger, knowing that the examples of questions they were giving bore no resemblance to those that were actually in the tests. Blaming the system has become the way out for those who can't get through it. There are people who do pass so can it be so wrong?
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline toidi

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« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2007, 10:51:44 PM »
Fireftrm

Still not even dealt with the point that the emphasis appears to be on recording of evidence, rather than actually doing it.
Sorry I forgot you said People were "incompetent" "Frauds" "deserving of severe discipline measures"  
Not to mention I got to a high rank within the Fire Service  and communicated at national level with Chief Officers and now run my own business but you imply I have literacy needs?

Well thank you, I will give your suggestion the consideration it deserves!

I recall having to deal with the fallout of a Sub Officer who appeared to have similar Management  traits as yourself and dealt with everything through "severe discipline measures" as you succinctly put it.

Back to my point that in the past, the portfolio of evidence was checked and if that is satisfactory, the Trainee is passed competent.

At this point no Practical confirmation was done, so me (with my obvious literacy needs according to you) and a number of other people could be forgiven for thinking that if what they wrote in their evidence books was satisfactory, they were deemed competent.

This was further implied by the Fire Service awarding them the Competent rate of pay!

It was only recently that they decided to do a practical assessment at the end of it and this is where Trainees had the difficulty- A difficulty that you would solve with "Severe discipline measures"

At least we agree on something as both of us are glad that the service in question is nowhere near you as I know people still in this service who are actively putting measures in place to ensure practical firefighting skills are more important than portfolios.

Offline fireftrm

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« Reply #55 on: November 01, 2007, 08:27:29 AM »
I have to say that, once again, you have completely failed to read my post properly. I really do think you have some literacy needs, as you seem to have reader's block, perhaps driven by a desire not to see what is on the page? Either way, born of a 'won't read', or a can't understand, you maybe should think about asking for a literacy test. Actually that you got to a senior position and dealt with CFOs does nothing to indicate otherwise. There is, more than a little, research to show that a condsiderable number of people, even at higher levels in an organisation, do have key skills needs. You can have a Doctorate, but still have literacy, or numeracy basic skill deficiencies.

Now back to what I said in my prior post, which you ignored, or couldn't understand, I will try simpler language.

A written record, such as you are suggesting is used to determine competence, is not, not ever has been/could be, the means by which that competence has been determined. It is a record of the decision by the assessor. How many more times do I need to state that before you get it?

So the record is of a competent demonstration of skill, not the evidence itself. The record is something new? No, we have been recording the comeptence of firefighters for years, in the past a report by the StnO/ADO/DO of a probationary test, maybe quarterly. So all you have at the end of probation is a set of records of competence, oh and written. Now the assessment is generally carried out by the local supervisory management, maybe that is a former StnO. So the development firefighter has a set of written records to show what they had done. If these are not really showing what they did then the supervisor and firefighter are defrauding the employer and the tax payers. This is gross misconduct and I stand by my statement that this should result in sever disciplinary action. I am not a manager who believes in the use of discipline, except local informal routes, unless necessary, and would be strongly opposed to the type of SubO you describe. However, the total disregard for the set of standards, to which a firefighter must be assessed, failure to do the job you are paid for and thus ending up with fraudulent records of someone else's competence is gross misconduct. Not only does that supervisor leave a potentially unsafe individual, they are assisting (well maybe not assisting as the development firefightermay not be complicit, just doing what he/she thinks is right) the competent rate of pay to be given - getting £6000 from the employer by misprepresentation. As the assessor is the primarily responsible person who creates such a position they should be dealt with, the Ff(D) may not be so aware.

It is now completely clear, in NOS, that every manager has the responsibility to identify development needs, set up and deliver development, assess and record. If not then they are not doing their job. Letting a firefighter get a couple of years down the line and not be able to carry out basic firefighting skill assessments means that the supervisors have been grossly negligent.

Now have I made myself clear enough for you to realise that I do not say written records are extremely important, but it is how they are produced that matters. Without the written record what record would there be? Do you know a different type that we could use, and before you say video - yes that can be, no reason why not and it should be encouraged as back up, especially where the organisation has found that supervisors are being negligent, as you describe.


So, again, records are required, but they are simply records of competent demonstration of skills - NOT THE COMPETENT DEMONSTRATION THEMSELVES.

PS may I ask how the service is going to record "that actively putting measures in place to ensure practical firefighting skills are more important than portfolios" is demonstrated by each firefighter, or who will assess these skills?
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline toidi

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« Reply #56 on: November 01, 2007, 09:44:05 AM »
That's it, I remember now- you lot communicate in what we called "dolphin speak"  
They used to teach it down at the IPDS Hub (known more accurately as the Spoke) at Moreton.
I remember some people becoming so immersed in Dolphin speak that they forgot how to communicate properly to Fire crews and became a great source of amusement.

To quote yourself -

"A written record, such as you are suggesting is used to determine competence, is not, not ever has been/could be, the means by which that competence has been determined. It is a record of the decision by the assessor. How many more times do I need to state that before you get it?"

You're right -I don't get it, I don't understand your point!

If an Assessor says someone can do a task and a Verifier looks at the written decision by the Assessor, the Verifier will sign the person off as competent, based on the written evidence in the book.
The Verifier may not even know or see the trainee and is going by the written evidence contained in the book.

Now you know all watch Managers love their job immensely, have great job satisfaction and feel that their management really care about their issues and want to help as much as possible.
Nothing in past 5 years could ever de-motivate these people and they are totally on board with the vast amount of change within the Services.

Call me cynical, but what if they weren't on board as much as you think they were- heaven forbid.

PS you said "Sever disciplinary action" in your most recent post- you seem to be quick at suggesting people take literacy tests that maybe  you should go on one yourself- 'People in glass houses and all that'

Offline fireftrm

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« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2007, 10:43:11 AM »
Quote from: toidi
That's it, I remember now- you lot communicate in what we called "dolphin speak"  
They used to teach it down at the IPDS Hub (known more accurately as the Spoke) at Moreton.
I remember some people becoming so immersed in Dolphin speak that they forgot how to communicate properly to Fire crews and became a great source of amusement.

To quote yourself -

"A written record, such as you are suggesting is used to determine competence, is not, not ever has been/could be, the means by which that competence has been determined. It is a record of the decision by the assessor. How many more times do I need to state that before you get it?"

You're right -I don't get it, I don't understand your point!

If an Assessor says someone can do a task and a Verifier looks at the written decision by the Assessor, the Verifier will sign the person off as competent, based on the written evidence in the book.
The Verifier may not even know or see the trainee and is going by the written evidence contained in the book.

PS you said "Sever disciplinary action" in your most recent post- you seem to be quick at suggesting people take literacy tests that maybe  you should go on one yourself- 'People in glass houses and all that'
Firstly the last point - accepted in part - though this was a typo and not a lack of understanding of the English language.

Now the written record and to explain as simply as I can. The record is of the assessor's decision of the competence that the development firefighter demonstrated through their observation of an event. So a firefighter carries out their tasks competently, the assessor observes this then records it - thus the written record. Also there will be records of the knowledge and understanding of the Ff(D), probably that the assessor asked some questions and they were answered correctly. These records would need to show that the assessor had observed the Ff(D) carrying out every required task tot he required standard and to have all the knowledge necessary.

If the assessor therefore records that the firefighter has carried out required tasks satisfactorily, and this is a lie, then they must have been deliberately and falsely deeming competence. This is gross misconduct.

If the verifier only sees the written record, and does not ever check by a true practical sample (such as going out to see some assessments taking place) then they are doing some things wrong too, they are trusting the assessor’s professionalism (your examples show that they certainly should not have done) and they are failing to carry out verification as it should be done. So the assessors and verifiers in the service you example are failing, badly.

In addition if these Ff(D)s are not performing suitably after a couple of years of service then the supervisors are not doing their jobs, simple. It isn’t he new recording system, it is the lack of competence of the supervisors.
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline Big A

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« Reply #58 on: November 01, 2007, 11:01:27 AM »
Quote from: toidi
If an Assessor says someone can do a task and a Verifier looks at the written decision by the Assessor, the Verifier will sign the person off as competent, based on the written evidence in the book.
The Verifier may not even know or see the trainee and is going by the written evidence contained in the book.
But you do understand. If that assessor says someone is competent and they aren't, then that is where the fault is. He/she bears the responsibility for inflicting a sub-standard officer on the rest of us and the rot will have begun.

Midland Retty

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« Reply #59 on: November 01, 2007, 02:39:25 PM »
Quote from: fireftrm
Midland I wholeheaterdly agree with johno67, the PQA does not score any higher for ethnic minorities, that isn't just my service it is the national firefighter selection test. Ours is regional and certainly examples of difference based on age, sex, sexual orientation, social background, race and religon would be equally useful. It is not the example that is scored it is the words the applicant uses. That is the scoring sytem, there is no other. You say the NFST is another contentious issue, well maybe but then again that is exactly the process you have been discussing already!

That you have had comments from people who have failed the system, be they recruits or those going for next role does not surprise me, I have heard many such comments myself. I have sat next to colleagues telling me how stupid certain questiosn were and that their answers were x and that they had been told that y was actually wanted. As I listened I had to contain my anger, knowing that the examples of questions they were giving bore no resemblance to those that were actually in the tests. Blaming the system has become the way out for those who can't get through it. There are people who do pass so can it be so wrong?
Thats fair comment fireftrm, I think the problem lies with the two brigades I work for possibly.

If what you say is true then I think there is a case of "straying from the national standard" going on at local brigade level . And this is what is worrying me.

Tailor made answers scoring better points.

The fact that someone might be athletic and physically capable but is not very good at communicating the right buzz words just to "tick boxes" in the interview, which are then collated and sent to impress some external organisation with the brigade saying " ooo look at us arent we amazing because we employ such a diverse workforce"

Yes I appreciate many recruits blame their failure on the tests. Its happened in the past in previous test formats and will happen again no matter what type of tests you devise.

But if that is the case why is my brigades inviting failed applicants back time and time again to undertake re-sits? Surely they would just say " this person didn't make the grade so tough he doesn't re-apply for another 12 months"

Im just sick and tired of half measures and silly procedures. I've just come back from a meeting a training school and during a break i collared 12 recruits on the course asking what they felt about the recruitment procedure. Most were fairly happy with them but not one had a good word to say about the situational awareness section of the written test.

They commented that some of the questions were just too open to several answers and you coudlnt judge what the assessor was wanting from the question.

We are then in the days where greater emphasis is placed on trying to create a profile of a person based on the questions they answer.

Ive read some of the questions and I and several of my colleagues firmly think that they require a certain base knowledge of fire service operation in some circumstances.

The answers to some of the questions could all potentially be correct but are too contencious to be discarded through the process of common sense. There is no opportunity to show why you arrived at a particular decision.

So Im, going to lay down the gauntlet to those who feel the NPET and NOS is working; Get you existing firefighters to volunteer to do it and see what results come back and I'll think you'll begin to grasp where Im coming from!


If you think its working - then great - lets audit that system then... and see what we find. I've never had a problem with being proven wrong.