Removal of wardens "extra care homes" and "very sheltered housing"

[William 29]

Has anyone conducted FRA’s in “extra care homes” or “very sheltered housing” premises where the 24 hour wardens have been removed?  I have been involved with 2 this week that are essentially large converted houses into homes for up to 7 residents.

One of the premises has no detection in the bedrooms, escape routes, lounges and kitchen only are covered.  A central protected staircase is provided with an external which is not weatherproofed.  They comprise ground, first and second floors with some of the occupants in their 90’s, very frail and with mobility problems.

My understanding is that extra care facilities were designed for purpose built sheltered housing complexes with a higher standard (60 mins) of fire separation/compartmentation between rooms and apartments.

My understanding of the AFD requirements are:
For larger residential care premises a BS 5839 Pt 1 2002 Category L2 (M), where the residents are all capable of evacuating themselves without assistance. Sheltered housing an L2 (M) within the circulation areas and Grade C LD 2 or 3 in the sheltered accommodation. The criteria in small residential homes accommodating up to 4 residents who do not need assistance to evacuate themselves can be a simple alarm system based on mains powered interlinked alarms conforming to BS 5839 Pt6.  However these premises are outside of these criteria.

Our FRA’s have recommended the reintroduction of the wardens.  If this can not be done then the installation of an L1 fire alarm system with residential sprinklers has been suggested.  I have made some calls today and it seems that the removal of such wardens is becoming quite common.  Have any of you come across this and have your FRA’s recommended anything different?

[William 29]

Has no one any experience of this issue??

[kurnal]

Is anyform of supervision being provided in lieu of wardens?
I have not experienced extra care but many former staffed sheltered housing schemes are moving towards roving wardens and monitoring via a central control room, with intercom links to each residential unit.

Care in the community is a similar concern for group homes where operators appear to apply the domestic standard for people who are really not equipped to look after themselves or their peers in an emergency.The operatos of such schemes "facilitate" people to own their own homes and are then indirectly financed by the Govt.

[William 29]

Is anyform of supervision being provided in lieu of wardens?

As far as I know from 1800 hrs the wardens will not be on the premises but would attend when called out by the care centre.  Each resident has an emergency bracelet for us in an emergency.

[val]

William29

This blurring of 'categories' is common but need not be an issue to assessors or auditors. What needs to be addressed is the level of risk and whether the responsible person is complying with their obligations under the Fire Safety Order.
Extra Care is a further incremental step on the rainbow of care provision, (sorry got a bit poetic there), more than sheltered housing but not quite full 'nursing home'. This approach is common across all 'care premises' from assisted living through to full dependancy.

From a legal point of view, your first question is - does the Fire Safety Order apply? If so - to what extent? Then - who is the responsible person(s)?

Then it is simply a case of going back to basics - are relevant people as safe as reasonably practicable? Does the alarm system warn them? Can they get out? Are they able to get out on their own, etc?

Remember when you strip away all the 'efficiency arguments', the RP 'creates the risk' and they must deal with it. Both assessors and auditors are obliged, (to some extent) to assist the fulfilment of this duty in the most cost effective way but the duty remains.

Premises providing care were always going to be, (along with dodgy hotels), the premises most directly affected by the new legislation.

[Midland Retty]

In my experience most schemes are oinly warden controlled monday to friday 9.00am to 5.00am and after hours someone like "carelink" a remote monitoring company answers the phones, fiore alarm activations or gives assistance from anyone pulling a pull cord or panic alarm.

[martyn brandrick]

These premises are just blocks of flats that provide a warden in daytime mon - fri.  So the FSO/FSA would only apply to the common areas.  So our leg does not really cover these.  We call them sheltered houses and the residents pay money to stay, that goes toward the warden.

Problems all over the country due to cut backs and working time directive, that means the reduction of warden cover. The good old intercom to a centre many miles away is replacing the wardens.

Get the housing to set up a service level agreement with a organisation that when an out of hours call is made someone will be in attendance to take responsibility of the panel.

If they dont tell your crews that once checked and safe walk out and let it ring.  Its not long in getting the message.

[William 29]

I can't see on the ones I have done FRA's on that the RRFSO would not apply.  They are not single private dwellings, they may possibly  be defined as a shared house or even HMO??

[Richard Earl]

hi william,

i have just finished a uk wide training program for a large housing association dealing with removal of wardens.
the opinion of the group was to traing staff on what to do when on duty, and upgrade signage to AAA throughout the site, upgrade the fire alarm systems to addressable, increse the number of zones thus reducing the travel distance between 30 min fire doors and installing PIB box's with all information in.as to date everyone seams happy with what we are doing.

if you need any more info email me and we can meet up

richard

[martyn brandrick]

hi william,

i have just finished a uk wide training program for a large housing association dealing with removal of wardens.
the opinion of the group was to traing staff on what to do when on duty, and upgrade signage to AAA throughout the site, upgrade the fire alarm systems to addressable, increse the number of zones thus reducing the travel distance between 30 min fire doors and installing PIB box's with all information in.as to date everyone seams happy with what we are doing.

if you need any more info email me and we can meet up

richard

Who resets the fire alarm when there is no warden?
what difference would some signs make to some of the residents?
An adressable system is fine as long as you have a responsible person in attendance or do you want the FRS to dael with it?
As for the being happy I am not (FRS) and niether is the companies i am dealing with when i tell my crews not to touch the fire alarm system and leave it ringing out.
Nothing short of penny pinching.

[martyn brandrick]

I can't see on the ones I have done FRA's on that the RRFSO would not apply.  They are not single private dwellings, they may possibly  be defined as a shared house or even HMO??

why are they not single private dwellings? Are they not just blocks of flats with a common area? what facilities do they share to be an HMO? And they are not resedential care homes either. so where does the FSA apply (common areas?)

[William 29]

Although the premises appear to be being used as sheltered accommodation they are not designed as such i.e. each dwelling does not have 60 FR separation.  In any event the RRFSO would apply to the common areas so I don't feel would alter the outcome of the FRA significantly.  The residents share kitchen and toilet facilities but have tea/coffee areas in each bedroom.

[PhilB]

I can't see on the ones I have done FRA's on that the RRFSO would not apply.  They are not single private dwellings, they may possibly  be defined as a shared house or even HMO??

Why are you quoting 'single private dwelling'?? That term has no relevance here. The Fire Safety Order does not apply to domestic premises and it does sound tat these are domestic. The common parts would be covered but they're not the parts your concerned with, The Housing Act may be a better tool here.

[val]

Phil B

Good to know that we are disagreeing again!
From the initial and subsequent descriptions I cannot see that these premises are 'domestic' at all. They have limited separation, no independent facilities within their rooms, (we have not yet sunk to making our pensioners live on toast). They are no more domestic than the old type of care home except they are being made to look after themselves communally and without care staff.
The warden is a bit of a distraction...if the residents are not as safe as reasonably practicable, (and if the Order does apply) then the RP, whoever they are, does not seem to be complying.
Just where do we draw the line between being 'in residence' (care home) and 'resident and not used in common' (domstic). Does your approach mean that even in a fully staffed old-fashioned type care home, if a microwave is provided in the private area then that area comes outside of the Fire Safety Order.
It may be one for the lawyers but I don't think the intention of government was to include every private area in any type of building as outside the scope of the Order.
By the way, if the Housing Oficer deems it an HMO then it is, and then becomes subject to mandatory licensing and all the fire safety conditions that they will attach to that license.
Good discussion though. So much more fun in the abstract than really having to sort it out.

[PhilB]

Phil B

Good to know that we are disagreeing again!
From the initial and subsequent descriptions I cannot see that these premises are 'domestic' at all.

Humble apologies Val & William I just read the first post again....especially the bit about large converted house!!! The Order will apply I promise to disagree again Val at the earliest opportunity.