Cold Smoke Seal

[Sherpa]

I have an existing double door fitted including cold smoke seals, but the access control engineer have cut out 300mm of the seal, to fit there electric lock.

I wondered if any one could tell me if its acceptable to alter a FD30 door to fit this electric lock. If so, whats the rules regarding the missing 300mm of cold smoke seal??

Is this acceptable? If not please point me towards the relevant documents

Also can anyone tell me where I could find a chart to explain all the little circle markers on the hinge side of the fire doors please.

[kurnal]

300mm seems a lot to cut off to fit a lock. Is this much really necessary?
If the seal cut off the door leaf or from the frame?
There are products on the market that are self adhesive to help make up the gap. See the envirograph range. These are not likely to last if stuck to the door leaf but in the frame can work ok.

Would I be bothered? Depends on the circumstances. If the door opens from a room into the only staircase in a building, or in sleeping accommodation / flats into a dead end corridor or anywhere in a care home I would be concerned and would have it sorted out.
If it was a door to an office corridor or the top door in a staircase I probably would not be worried enough to do anything about it.

[slubberdegullion]

Just extending kurnal's questions, does the missing portion of seal allow you to see daylight through the gap or does the part of the door with the missing seal butt tightly against a rebate, forming a good seal anyway?

It is very common for fire doors to have their smoke seals missing where the hinges and locks are.  But not normally 300mm.  It is possible to get intumescent strips that sit between the metal plate (of the hinge or lock) and the timber of the door or frame.  But these offer no cold smoke protection.

A good reference for what is acceptable is to look at the pass/fail criteria in the standard fire tests - look in ADB for precise standards.  

Double doors can be problematic and I've seen some doors that would have failed the integrity test without even having been subjected to the test fire! (i.e. they've had bloody great gaps in them that you could wiggle a pencil through)

This link has some information on fire door markings - also has an email address for further info.

http://www.bmtrada.com/site/html/home.html?qmark.asp?p=2&2

Stu

[Davo]

Sherpa

I think you need BS8214:1990

This refers to two coloured circles, one inside the other.
Red inner core means intumescent seals require to be fitted at time of installation, green means can be fitted at a later date.
The outer circle depicts the integrity rating, ie white is 20 minutes, yellow is 30 mins and blue is one hour.
There are others but these are the main ones.
Some manufacturers use their own scheme and this just confuses!!!

[Sherpa]

Thanks very much for your help, I now have the answers to all my questions

[shaunmckeever]

I thought the coloured circle markings had been discredited because unscruplous cowboys had been fitting the coloured plugs into non-fire resisting doors then selling the doors as fire-resisting.

[Davo]

shaumckeever
what about the supplier who glues paper stickers on the door which then drop off once the door dries out
(this is a floor renovation).
At least with plugs they stay there, do not fade etc
Incidentally, the supplier does not manufacture.

[shaunmckeever]

Davo

that doesn't answer my question. My understanding is that the marking scheme discussed above can no longer be relied upon. I'm seeking confirmation of what to me is just a rumour.

[Davo]

shaunmckeever

to answer your question, I am not aware of the rumour. If so, then the BS needs revising (it does anyway as it was done in 1990, also nobody seems to have heard of it)
ASDMA do a Best Practice guide to timber doors, also a contractors guide.
Leaderflush do a On-Site handbook, similarly BWF Certifire and Premdor do some useful stuff, all free on the web.

Please do bear in mind to achieve 30 minutes you need to look at the whole doorset, including frame.
I have witnessed installers using up to eight packers between frame and wall!!!

[Fishy]

The 'plain' plugs (i.e. round core in a round plug) don't, in my opinion, give you any real assurance that the doorset would have the required performance.  Anyone could buy the plugs and install them in any doorset, without any real controls being in place.  You may as well write 'FD30' on the door using a magic marker!

The plugs where the core is fir-tree shaped show that the doorsets are certified under the TRADA scheme, so there's independent assurance that they'd perform as required.

Certifire use a label system - similar assurance to the TRADA scheme.

There's a three-colour plug about as well - three equal-sized segments.  Don't believe that this has anything to do with fire resistance.

On the subject of the interruption to the smoke seals - difficult to be definitive here.  Unless you install the seals offset to bypass the lock/latch you're always going to need to interrupt them and I wouldn't have thought that there's much difference between 100mm cut-out or 300mm.  If you want a definitive view I'd suggest contacting the seal manufacturers directly - for example www.lorientuk.com have a pretty good technical department.

[Davo]

Fishy
If anybody wanted to cheat it does not matter what shape the plugs are, its a piece of cake.
Same goes for stickers. Anything can be cloned, ask any large manufacturer.
Anyway, why do TRADA use plugs when the label contains more info? Does anybody know what the TRADA plugs mean?
As for the three coloured plug, again will mean something to somone?
In regard to the size of the cut-out, surely this means greater smoke leakage?

[Tom Sutton]

I believe the plastic plugs have been dropped in favour of the tamper proof lables by the BWF. There are lables for 30,60, 90, and 120 fire resistant doors but you will have to contact BWF for confirmation.

[Fishy]

You're missing the point.  There's no need to 'cheat' with the round plugs, because they don't actually mean a great deal anyway.

As regards the label v plug - labels can contain more info, but if you need to plane the edge of the door then you lose the label!  The plug is more permanent and the performance info. remains even if you plane through it.

Of course cutting the seal means greater smoke leakage.  The question to ask of the seal manufacturers is does this reduce performance below that recommended in the Approved Doc B (Table B1 in the E&W version)?

Fishy
If anybody wanted to cheat it does not matter what shape the plugs are, its a piece of cake.
Same goes for stickers. Anything can be cloned, ask any large manufacturer.
Anyway, why do TRADA use plugs when the label contains more info? Does anybody know what the TRADA plugs mean?
As for the three coloured plug, again will mean something to somone?
In regard to the size of the cut-out, surely this means greater smoke leakage?

[Sherpa]

Davo, your spot on there, it was exactley that point i was questioning.

 If you a double door that has cold smoke seals installed all around the frame and on the opening door leaf edges, and someone cuts out 300m to install a lock, is that acceptable?.

 There will be a certain amount of smoke leakage, but how can i determine if that smoke leakage is acceptable. Does it involve delving deep into the world of mathmatics to work out how much smoke will pass through??

[kurnal]

Theres no calculation could tell you that Sherpa.

If you recollect one of the reasons for the seals was that pyrolisis occurred between the edge of the door leaf and frame and this  added greatly to the volume of smoke passing the door. This was found to be worst with a gap of 3mm between door and frame - sods law- just the good fit we are looking for!!

I think the answer is to minimise any such gaps as far as can be reasonably achieved- theres never an excuse for poor workmanship, and is there an alternative type of ironmongery that would not make such inroads into the smoke seals.