Author Topic: Colt extended corridoor system  (Read 8014 times)

Offline xan

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Colt extended corridoor system
« on: November 26, 2007, 04:41:20 PM »
Any views/experience of this please:
http://www.coltinfo.co.uk/products-and-systems/smoke-control/products/extended-corridor/
An option offered by a developer,although my corridoor is only 9m,due to a 'extended' protected lobby of 9m.

Offline kurnal

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Colt extended corridoor system
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2007, 06:59:31 PM »
Yes have seen this type of solution referred to in appraisal reports several times but never met one in the flesh. I have proposed it for a project I am involved in where planning will not allow the normal AOV shaft to penetrate sufficiently high above roof level -  but at early stages so research and costing in early stages.

Lets not forget that the "normal"  AOV solutions proposed in the ADB are also fairly new, relatively unproven, and are based on many assumptions not least that nobody will leave their door more than 1/4 open if they have a fire (self closers are fitted of course). Those relying on windows are always highly susceptble to wind conditions.

A number of Building Control Officers have told me that this type of engineered solution would be their preferred choice over natural ventilation.

What are the arrangements for inlet air in the scheme proposed?

PS I would be interested in details of your extended lobby as I am just struggling to convince a BCO involved in one of my projects that my proposed lobby (identical to a firefighting lobby in every respect)   can be extended to 5m and counted as a storey exit to meet the 7.5m limit on a dead end corridor.

Offline xan

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Colt extended corridoor system
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2007, 07:40:15 PM »
yet to discuss the details with either the BCO or applicant.As for the lobby-it is 9m from lobby door to staircase door,cheeky but can count as 'storey exit' if it conforms to ff lobby!

Offline BCO

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Colt extended corridoor system
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2007, 09:01:17 PM »
Sounds like it is nearly compliant without the colt ventilation system. Yes the TD is bit excessive (1.5m) and the extended lobby is ‘cheeky’ but with the normal AOV it is likely to meet the functional requirements.

I am aware of schemes using ventilation systems similar to the colt system (inlet and extract at opposite ends of a corridor) and the CFD show them to work (If you are willing to believe the CFD, as some regulators are not!) If the conditions (geometry etc) on the colt CFD analysis match your scheme then it would be a reasonable solution to the problem and is likely to provide facilities which would be better than the basic code approach.  

Some regulators require this type of solution to be detailed in a fire strategy (fire engineered solution) document that brings all the fire safety provisions together and considers them holistically. If this is the only variation form the code approach then a strategy may be over the top. However if they propose to use a system which is not the ‘total package’ from colt then I would ask for a full strategy with CFD and details of the plant, ducts and associated back up systems.

Offline slubberdegullion

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Colt extended corridoor system
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2007, 10:42:23 AM »
I've come across this before.  Here are some issues:

1. The buildings these system are proposed for are defend in place - but if people become aware of a fire next door, which they are very likely to do if it is a sizeable fire, they are much more likely to try to get out than to shut the door to their flat and carry on watching Coronation Street.

2. With the ADB compliant layout the flats in the dead end are exposed to risk from one other flat, the flats in the two way part of the corridor are exposed to risk from 5 other flats - but, importantly, they have the option to turn away from the fire and smoke source.

3. With the Colt system each flat is exposed to risk from a much greater number of flats - 10 in their illustrative diagram.  Few of the occupants may have the option to turn away from the source of the smoke.  If the fire flat is near the inlet, occupants near the outlet have all the products of combustion directed to them.

4. Items 2 and 3 above are part of the point of limiting travel distance - they are more significant than the number of metres you have to walk to get to the storey exit.

5. Regarding the CFD videos Colt present, they seem to be simulating two puffs of smoke into the corridor; one, presumably, when the occupants leave and one when the fire service arrive.

6. They have assumed zero wind for their CFD modelling which is extremely unlikely and very unfair on the AOV scenario.  This undermines the AOV video and so this should be treated as false.

7. There are many other possible scenarios apart from the two individual puffs of smoke into the corridor (albeit that they are large puffs) that should be considered.  What if there is continual seepage of smoke from a flat door, what if the flat door fails to close properly, what if the flat doors fails (it's only half hour fr).  CFD should be performed for all likely scenarios.  Without this being done, little confidence should be had in the system.

8. Other systems sometimes provide input fans with natural ventilation.  This has a different effect to the provision of output fans with natural inlets as proposed here.  Colt mention very briefly the depressurisation of the corridor caused by their system.  This should be quantified in any specific application.  It could have an effect on the movement of fire products from the fire flat into the corridor and on the effort required to open a flat door away from the depressurised space.  That said, a system that results in a positive pressure in the corridor could move fire products from the corridor into the adjoining flats.  At the end of the day, any manipulation of pressure differentials should be quantified and analysed for effects.

9. The temperature of the smoke from a flat door adjacent to the fans should be assessed to make sure that the fans are appropriately rated.

10. The whole lifetime of the building must be considered and the likely lifetime of the system (bearing in mind testing and maintainance regimes) should be compared with this to ensure that the building will remain safe for its whole lifetime.  If the building is likely to still be there in 100 years time, it should be asked of Colt, is your system likely to last 100 years?

All in all, acceptance of the system should only be based on rigorous analysis of it's performance under a variety of scenarios.  

I know that AOVs aren't brilliant and that Colt only have to show that their system is at least as good as AOVs, but do ask them to do that properly and don't let them rely on the generalisations given in their sales pitch.

Having said all that, in this case, because it's only 9 m, I'd go along with BCO's comments above.

11.

Offline slubberdegullion

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Colt extended corridoor system
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2007, 10:45:32 AM »
whoops!  add your own "11." to the above....

Stu

Offline xan

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Colt extended corridoor system
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2007, 12:08:13 PM »
Thanks for your replies,I was of the same opinion as BCO,in that it is all but compliant without the Colt system,and  some reservations of mine put into sensible comments by you experts!

Offline kurnal

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Colt extended corridoor system
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2007, 05:43:12 PM »
As usual Slubberdegullion provides us with an excellent thought provoking post. Thanks Stu.
 
Your comment in item 4 over the increased number of flats creating an additional risk more significant  than the simple increase in dead end travel distance is spot on.

At first when I read your posting I did not understand why you appeared to be applying a much more rigorous standard of proof for the colt system than the conventional approach- on thinking it through your logic is sound because the risk is higher- fires are more likely as the number of flats increases.

Offline slubberdegullion

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Colt extended corridoor system
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2007, 09:10:10 PM »
Thanks kurnal.  Praise from you is praise indeed!  

I think the point you pick up on is one that many miss.  

I've seen a similar system in a building with about 12 flats in the corridor.  What I particularly didn't like about it was that it wasn't sprinklered.  If it had had sprinklered flats I could not have foreseen any fire significantly threatening the common corridor. Without sprinklers (and bearing in mind that there are over 200 flats in total over 25 floors and that the anticipated lifetime of the building is long) I  think it is inevitable that at some time there will be a fully involved fire in one of the flats.

Now, it might be safe for neighbours to remain in their flats with their doors shut but if I was living there and the flat next door was going like the clappers I know that I would like to have the option to get out safely without having to pass the fire flat potentially leaking out smoke into my escape route (or worse).

The sub-division and travel limitations of ADB cannot take the risk of this scenario away but they do reduce probabilities significantly.

Stu

ps I live in a bungalow