Zoning on 3 story buildings with 4-7 flats

[John@EPL]

Hi Guys,
This is my first post here and now I have found you all I shall be a regular visitor I'm sure. I install fire systems and perform inspections and servicing  in my local region (swansea) for HMO student properties(NICEIC contractor). I stick to this sector as it suits me well and I know most of the landlords (being one myself).  I know the local council / fire officer requirements they are plain and transparent and fully agree with them, so life is easy in Swansea. Trouble is I have just been asked to look at a building in Cardiff where I don't know the local requirements (they are very slack) and I have to cover backside referring to BS pt1 & 6.
I would like to run the scenario across you all to see whether my concerns are to code or to just local or personal preference. I read the codes and I can see it both ways. Unfortunately I go back to gut feeling of not being happy, and being a one man band a second opinion is a bit thin on the ground.

Here goes.

HMO 4-7 flats (studio, 1 or 2 bed flats) over 3 floors. Fire panel with 1 zone covering the whole building ( approx 180m2). Bell/ sounders on every hallway level. Detectors in hallways and stairs. Each flat has H/D in Kitchen and S/D in bedrooms and living areas.

My Concerns.

I don't like 1 zone even if it is below 300m2. I would like to see a zone for every floor and maybe one for hallways and stairs.
Being only 1 zone there is no indication wherein the building the fire is. There is no visual indicators either outside each flat ( again would be my preference if all was on one zone).

Bells/Sounders sound pressure readings are low in the flats below 65Db in bedrooms and living areas.

Call points are ok.

All documentation is lost hence cannot confirm the reasoning or original fire officer spec. So noting to check against.

Building is full of asylum seekers who hardly speak english. Use of incense  sticks is rife and to me the occupants are high risk. Hence concerned again about 1 zone.


Am I going mental here??. If it was my building I know what I would do, but I want to make sure that I am not just going on personal preference but to the code to cover my butt. He may want me to do the servicing and yearly inspections.

Any one with experience of this layout of building?

Any responses appreciated.

Thanks,

John

John@epl-electrical-services.com

[kurnal]

Hi John welcome to the forum.
Just to set the scene a little further is this an old building that has been converted into a HMO or was it purpose built?
Has each unit got a self closing fire resisting entrance door with fire and smoke seals?
Are ceilings old lath and plaster or do they appear to be modern plasterboard?
Are the smoke detectors in the flats self contained or are they all connected to the main panel on a one out all out system?
Would you say it is currently a Part 1 L2 system?
Do the residents share any facilities
Is there any evidence of a history of vandalism?
In general would you say there may be a rapid turnover of residents?
Sorry for the grilling this was not supposed to be a exam

[John@EPL]

Hi Kurnal

old building converted to flats. Probably 25+years ago

All flats are self contained even the studios. No sharing or facilities apart from stairs and landings. All have self closing doors and smoke seals (abeit they are old and not great)

All ceilings are plasterboard Not sure whether 1/2 or 1 hr. Where I have seen holes it looks like 1 layer 1/2 " so 1/2 hr

All Detectors in flats and halls and landings are on same zone circuit. NOT independent circuits for Flats (mains)  and (system) for stairs and landings as seen in some new builds.

I would say it is part 1 L2 (of a long time ago) Panel has been upgraded but wiring is old white fire resistant.

Don't know about vandalism. immigrants not the best tenants they have little understanding of safety, maintenance or leaving things in hallways ( Not a racial slur in anyway just an observation). Probably due to  the differences of H&S, Fire law etc from their last country.

Turnover of tenants would be rapid the prop is leased to the local council as a first drop for asylum seekers.

Keep the questions coming. The risk makes me shiver the more  I think of it.

Thanks
John

[kurnal]

Its a difficult one John. It appears to be compliant with the guidance at the time of conversion- in fact  greatly exceeds the guidance of 25 yrs ago with so much detection ( the old blue DOE HMO Guide)

Even for a conversion today it would probably comply with a part 6 system because of its size.

The problem is management of alarms that arise, exacerbated by the lack of a responsible person, and the difficulties in identifying the origin of an alarm. It is a nightmare if you start to think it through but lets face it- it applies to almost every similar HMO except those few with the necessary compartmentation to adopt a stay put policy. It relies on persons responding to an alarm, communicating, jointly determining and dealing with the cause and then pressing buttons on the panel till the problem goes away. Or probably ripping the thing down in frustration. But its survived 25 years so cant be too much of a problem!

The Responsible Person should take these problems  into account and suitable control measures could be clear fire procedures in appropriate languages, alarm monitoring, and instructions on how to reset the system.  Audibility should be addressed though.

I dont think anybody could reasonably enforce the replacement of the system as it seems to comply with the current guidance. Thats a problem in its own right- since the changes to the Housing Act last year and the demise of the old National technical standard DOE 12/92 the original intention of which was to introduce a fully risk assessed approach to fire safety with no specific benchmark, every local authority and housing provider has been busy reinventing the wheel and producing their own benchmark standards document, many have employed expensive consultants to do this and nationally we have ended up with several hundred slightly different versions of the old 12/92.

[John@EPL]

Again thank you kurnal for giving me an educated answer and being up so early on a sunday morning.
There is another thing I forgot to mention. 75% of the  detectors in this building are closer than 2" to walls or corners. Obviously a big no today but as I was about 14 when this installation went in 25yrs ago my memory of fire alarms at that time(1988 regs or before) is sketchy. Was this a common practice at that era. I can't see  that it would have been but this was a time of T&E etc.  

I have found out yesterday that there has been big problems with false alarms and I can see that the clustering of alarms in all rooms  are close to the doorways that lead to the kitchen which would cause that. I met a council maintenance man who said he often finds the panel disconnected or silenced by the occupants because of this. Probably why a new panel is installed. As you say non responsible person or procedure is a problem in these conditions. It has only been asylum seekers for 2yrs apparently. So may have had a better time of it before that.

I mainly wanted advise on the zone issue but  for interest....

All in all I feel I must advise a new system in the strongest terms.  Personally I like to upgrade as time goes by and keep current, but I feel the system has been upgraded on the cheap and when the new board went in the supply cable, isolation was not upgraded etc and many detectors 10yr+. If that is what I can see....what can't I.  To cover my bum, I think I will be writing a non satisfactory report on it due to many things and recommending a new system be installed. 25yrs I think is a good in-ings which ever way you think about it.

I would hope this is reasonable recommendation and what most others would do.I have to question myself though as obviously it has been serviced  by engineers previously ( but due to lack of documents maybe not).

Your comments on the detector sitings would be appreciated, as would do you know where I can get copies  of past regs. As most of the stuff I see is less than 10 years old due to Swansea's strict HMO policy. I would like to take a history lesson and understand standards of  my childhood, so I can list non conformances better. I used to have an old hand to ask these questions but unfortunately he has passed on.

Thanks again for your time.

John

[kurnal]

Siting of detectors so close to walls  was a no no then as it is now. This is a significant hazard.
1988  edition clause 12.2.9- "detectors should not be mounted within 500mm of any walls or partitions" T&E also a no no then.

I agree the alarm is not fit for purpose. But its odd that the person fitting the new panel has connected to the system without comment?

I have a very old photocopy of the 1988 standards and my old "bible" was a book by Peter Burry "Fire Detection and alarm systems- a guide to the BS code BS5839 part 1)  Paramount Publishing  ISBN 0947665110.
If this is no longer available - try abe books and amazon- I guess it could fall into the photocopier but is about 120 pages coopied 1 by 1. Same goes for the 88 edition. Gues theres no copyright issues after all this time.

[John@EPL]

Thank you again for your response.
I understand it is difficult on forums to express an opinion not having seen the system and try to gauge the competency of someone asking a questions.

I thank you for realising I am trying to act responsibly by asking questions rather than running away from every tricky job I come across before my time. I think a forum  is a great tool for the self employed. When I was employed we used to chew the cud over coffee. Its more tricky now.

I will have a look on ebay and amazon for the documents. If I cannot source them I might take you up on the offer of the old standard and I will happily pay you for your time and expenses. Maybe a market for a retro training course! all the ones I go on a for todays stds only.

The story I was told by the new building owners is that the panel had been upgraded under the responsibility of a local housing manager which they sacked as they realised he wasn't up to it. They also got rid of the local fire servicing company as they  inherited  from the last owner, who didn't seem too hot on costly upgrades.

I was brought in as an independent checker who didn't want the install work ( too far from home for long jobs) as they felt they couldn't trust anyone for an honest answer on condition if they had a vested interest.

Starting to feel now that everyone they must have asked has said the same as me except they quoted for the work! I think they bought a large portfolio from this guy and I get the feeling already I will be saying the same things on all I see. He has probably flogged the houses before he got stung for the upgrades himself.

With regard to the new panel  it is beyond me how you can fit a new panel (earlier this year) and not service or comment on the complete system no upgrade on supply even. Rip out put back in simplest form. Probably a no paperwork cash job.

Thanks again

John

[kurnal]

Maybe a market for a retro training course! all the ones I go on a for todays stds only.

Ha! that would be fun. Talk about the blind leading the visually impaired. There are some far more qualified than me on this forum to do that. In terms of alarms  I drive  them but dont try to fix them. And anyway all that really matters these days is todays standards in the risk assessment based era. Its good to have an understanding of past practice- to understand why something was done how it was- but one of the principles of prevention specified in the RRO is to adapt to technical progress- as fas as reasonably practicable of course.

Let me know if you do need help with those standards though.