Policy for reducing calls to person shut in lift

[steve walker]

Does anyone have any views or information about ways to reduce the number of calls to "person shut in lift?

Ideally the lift shouldn't break down in the first place. If it does there should be arrangements to release the occupants other than call the fire brigade. In London about sixteen thousand of these calls are made to the Brigade each year. About three quarters of the calls are from residential flats and the remainder mostly business/ commercial.

FRS have the option of charging the lift owner / responsible person for their time and resources.

FRS do not have a duty (FRS Act 2004) to release people shut in lifts however most choose to do so.

I think that it is one of those sticky areas; are we subsidising the lift owners and undercutting the commercial lift engineers who will provide this service? Or are we giving a service to the community and preventing distress and injury? Or ...

[The Lawman]

Here's a controversial suggestion: surely it would pay to employ a lift engineer or two to specifically deal with those calls!

[kurnal]

If brigades have the power / ability to charge the owner of the lift then why dont they just do this?

Or you could give options on the emergency intercom

For rapid rescue by the fire brigade at a fee of £250 press 1
For a 2 hour wait followed by a free rescue by the lift engineer press 2
To contact the owner of the lift on his luxury yacht press 3 (premium rate)........

[Mike Buckley]

In today's Fire Service I can't see the problem, £250 X 16,000 calls per annum = lots of cash!!! Even if you had some designated engineers at a lesser charge it would pay for itself.

Although it was before my time I did serve with people who manned a chimney van, two firefighters in a van with chimney kit who responded to chimney fires.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Although it was before my time I did serve with people who manned a chimney van, two firefighters in a van with chimney kit who responded to chimney fires.

Mike, it still happens with small fires but there called Targeted Response Vehicles. Modernisation.

Seriously though, but the charges up - this may act as a deterrent.

[Steven N]

a friend of mine is a lift engineer & he forever cusses about the fire service releasing people from lifts, complaining that we break them even more. It would of course be preferable all round if the lift company were called to do the release

[kurnal]

Depends on how quickly the engineers may respond. 2hrs is typical in the shires.  Is it ok to have somone stuck in a lift for all that time? What if theres a fire during that time?

How would we feel if persons were locked in a room in the building and unable to escape? This is worse- they are also in a natural flue.
I think the fire brigade should attend and make a hefty charge on the owner of the building.

[Steven N]

I dont disagree with you  Kurnal, fine if we do it lets bill the owners & use some of the money on proper equipment & training to do lift rescue correctly. Now theres an ideal lets do some proper training!

[steve walker]

Depends on how quickly the engineers may respond. 2hrs is typical in the shires.  Is it ok to have somone stuck in a lift for all that time? What if theres a fire during that time?

How would we feel if persons were locked in a room in the building and unable to escape? This is worse- they are also in a natural flue.
I think the fire brigade should attend and make a hefty charge on the owner of the building.

Kurnal

Thats a really interesting angle that I will explore. As far as the level of charging goes; FRS can only charge a reasonable fee to cover their expences:

F&RS Act 2004
"In setting the amount of a charge, the authority must secure that, taking one financial year with another, the authority’s income from charges does not exceed the cost to the authority of taking the action for which the charges are imposed. "

Thanks to everyone who has contributed.

[steve walker]

Here's a controversial suggestion: surely it would pay to employ a lift engineer or two to specifically deal with those calls!

Should FRS compete directly with private companies who will provide this service? I know that we can probably think of examples where they do this already - providing commercial training etc.

[Chris Houston]

Well, when calculating those costs, why not consider the cost of the purchase of the £250,000 fire engine, the wages of the firefighters and control staff, the purchase of all the equipment, the investment in training.....

[steve walker]

Well, when calculating those costs, why not consider the cost of the purchase of the £250,000 fire engine, the wages of the firefighters and control staff, the purchase of all the equipment, the investment in training.....

I agree this should be considered.

Even if we didn't go to any of these routine non-emergency incidents we should have trained firefighters available to respond to a real emergency involing lifts.

[Chris Houston]

Perhaps one needs to consider how much of the brigades, as a percentage, is spent on this matter (16,000 a year sounds like a significant percentage) and allocate cost on that basis.  So if 10% of a brigages time is spent training and responding to such incidents, 10% of the cost of all buildings, vehicles, kit and wages should be attributable to that.  £250 per shout might be a little underselling!

[Tom Sutton]

Why does everything have to be laid before the alter of the Almighty Dollar, you are firefighters not accountants.

How much would you actually save if you did not respond, wear and tear on the appliance and the diesel, all other costs would have to be paid. Remember on most occasions these people are in distress and at the very least it is a training exercise for the day when you find somebody wrapped around the machinery. Also there is always a chance for a cupper

What’s happened to the firefighter’s code?

[kurnal]

It all depends what you are trying to achieve by the charging regime.
IMO it should not be looked at as a means of raising more revenue or even necessarily covering costs. The fire service is a publicly funded organisation and we all pay enough in taxes and business rates without additional charges.

But if there are 16000 calls per year it indicates that owners of buildings are not carrying out their responsibilities to maintain their lifts as diligently as they should and perhaps a realistic but nominal fee -say £250- would focus their mind a little. I bet if you looked at the calls there would be a pattern of repeat calls to the same premises.