Sandwich Panels & Firefighter Safety

[Guest]

There is talk and concern in fire brigade circles about the dangers posed to firefighters by sandwich or 'composite' building panels. Does anyone have any practical experience of this? I would very much appreciate any views.

[Guest]

The concerns about LISPS go back some years (6-8). The main hazards associated with them being fire spread within the panels themselves and their insulating properties leading to rapid heat build in premises where they are used. In ventilated properties the move to flashover can be extremely rapid and due to the fact that the supporting structure is very lightweight early collapse is inevitable. Back issues of Fire magazine should provide info on actual incidents as well as the hazards associated with LISPS themselves, then contact the Brigades involved for further info.
The use of LISPS did much to promote the idea of defensive firefighting techniques, my tip is to find out where they are in you area and if you are turned out to a fire in a building where LISPS are present think very carefully prior to committing any BA. My tip would be to vent from the outside and remove the fire gases with ppv prior to committing crews into a heavily smokelogged building to search for the fire.
Rudimentarily yours,
Mike.

[Guest]

 should read as 8

[Chris Houston]

Many insurance companies are also scared of these, the Loss Prevention Council have a scheme for approved panels.  This is called the LPS 1181 Scheme.  Grade A panels are non-combustible and have a degree fire resistance in terms of integrity (up to 136 minutes) and insulation (up to 28 minutes.)

Many other panels claim to be non-combusitble, and some might even be in their original state, but over time they get damaged.  Hence the LPS ones are the best.

Similar issues exist with new externaly insulated finish systems where materials such as expanded polystyrene are used behind a cement render, putting a lot of combustible materials in a building.  Insurance companies push for mineral wool insulation.

[Guest]

Go the ODPM web site ,w. odpm.gov.uk and put sandwich panels in the search box,,you will get some documents ,,1 has real fire reports and loads of other stuff

[Guest]

All useful stuff which I'm very grateful for.
However, I'm especially interested in finding fire service opinions on firefighting and would ask 'Anderson' if he is a firefighter or has practical experience of such types of fire.

[Guest]

Well I can't speak for Anderson but I am a serving firefighter and have to say that LISPS scare the hell out of me.

As mentioned above the promote the rapid heating of buildings, they are great for causing rapid flashoevr situations, and difficult to fight fires in sandwhich panels to.

If i had my way they would be banned.

J Thompson - Gerfan Site Emergency Services, Edinburgh

[Guest]

John,
Well government has already said "they aint gonna be banned!" And with most buildings now being built with them - now what you going to do?

[Guest]

John,
Well government has already said "they aint gonna be banned!" And with most buildings now being built with them - now what you going to do?

Refuse to insure them, personally

[Guest]

Are you in insurance?

[Guest]

Well done, Sherlock

[Guest]

Yes,
I am a firefighter and have been in the service w/t for 15 years so have witnessed first hand the transition from aggressive firefighting at almost every job toward a much more informed and educated approach where the tactics deployed have to be in line with amongst other things building construction. For the last 7 and a half years i have been a Sub performing in the role of watch manager and latterly trainer and so therefore have the luxury of viewing things from both the practical and theoretical point of view.
Remember one thing about why LISPS have become so widespread. Cost. The replacement value of the building is greatly reduced leading to reduced overheads in the form of insurance, its oh so unfortunate for the owners however that we sometimes insist on AFD and sprinkler protection. But often the fitting of sprinklers is not down to us but to the  insurers insistance. The fact is that due to the low cost and the time taken to build a new unit these buildings are designed in essence to be disposable. Why therefore risk the lives of Firefighters in order to solely maintain the practice of being seen to do something when its going through the roof or about to go into flashover or potentially backdraught.
Stay Safe.

[Guest]

With regard to firefighting tactics, I was involved in a workshop at Moreton in 98 which resulted in a guidance document being produced by the FRDG. Participants were invited to attend because of their direct operational involvement with this type of incident.

[Guest]

TGM
What were the outcomes. I have a feeling that i may have read the document, if so i seem to remember a key outcome being the requirement for OiCS to continually risk assess and be aware of the potential for rapid deterioration of conditions.
I think the message though for younger or inexperienced officers is this: 'Do you have the bottle to say no when your instincts or indeed the pressures exerted by the building owner are telling you to get in there and do something'. No book or guidance document can answer this its down to the savvi of the individual.