Author Topic: Strange fire alarm system in the New Year 2008 ???  (Read 49963 times)

Graeme

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Strange fire alarm system in the New Year 2008 ???
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2008, 12:42:43 PM »
Quote from: Wiz
Quote from: Graeme
i have just wrote that on my sheets in the past but i,m informed that you have to list them every service.
Graeme, I'm assuming your reply relates to the possibility of simply highlighting previous advised deficiencies that have not been dealt with. If so, whilst not suggesting the advice might be wrong, who informed you that you had to list them every service, and why?

If your reply relates to something else, please ignore.
Hi Wiz

It was a lecturer from the BFPSA a few years ago on a course i was on who mentioned that they had to be written every time.

I don't see what is wrong with a tick box you suggested or what i have done in the past and state that all previous findings are still outstanding.

alot easier

Offline Wiz

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Strange fire alarm system in the New Year 2008 ???
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2008, 01:50:54 PM »
Quote from: Graeme
Quote from: Wiz
Quote from: Graeme
i have just wrote that on my sheets in the past but i,m informed that you have to list them every service.
Graeme, I'm assuming your reply relates to the possibility of simply highlighting previous advised deficiencies that have not been dealt with. If so, whilst not suggesting the advice might be wrong, who informed you that you had to list them every service, and why?

If your reply relates to something else, please ignore.
Hi Wiz

It was a lecturer from the BFPSA a few years ago on a course i was on who mentioned that they had to be written every time.

I don't see what is wrong with a tick box you suggested or what i have done in the past and state that all previous findings are still outstanding.

alot easier
Hi Graeme, I wonder if it was just the lecturer's opinion, or even just the BFPSA's opinion. It may not have been based on a 'fact' but just a preference or a 'good idea'. We all have to be careful about the difference between 'facts' and 'opinions' so we don't pass on opinions to others as facts and so cause things to become confused. In saying all of that, there is definite sense in re-confirming deficiencies in systems to customers, but it is time-consuming, so unless we have to do it, there would be those who would be pleased to avoid keep repeating themselves every time!

Offline Benzerari

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Strange fire alarm system in the New Year 2008 ???
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2008, 03:26:32 PM »
Quote from: Benzerari
I invite every one to look at the link below, and please let me know what grade the fire alarm system in that school is classified, because it seems that the grades of fire alarm systems from A to F mentioned in this article are still in use nowadays.

here is the link and what do you think?

www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/WiringMatters/index.cfm#17
Would the fire alarm system in that school be classified as Grade D, E or F ?

Offline kurnal

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Strange fire alarm system in the New Year 2008 ???
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2008, 04:16:38 PM »
Hi Benzerari
The grades you refer to only apply to fire alarm systems for dwelling houses under BS5839 part 6. These systems are mainly interconnected smoke alarms.

The grades are not relevant to fire alarms in other types of building or to BS5839 part 1 alarm systems.

Graeme

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Strange fire alarm system in the New Year 2008 ???
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2008, 04:58:12 PM »
Quote from: Wiz
Quote from: Graeme
Quote from: Wiz
Graeme, I'm assuming your reply relates to the possibility of simply highlighting previous advised deficiencies that have not been dealt with. If so, whilst not suggesting the advice might be wrong, who informed you that you had to list them every service, and why?

If your reply relates to something else, please ignore.
Hi Wiz

It was a lecturer from the BFPSA a few years ago on a course i was on who mentioned that they had to be written every time.

I don't see what is wrong with a tick box you suggested or what i have done in the past and state that all previous findings are still outstanding.

alot easier
Hi Graeme, I wonder if it was just the lecturer's opinion, or even just the BFPSA's opinion. It may not have been based on a 'fact' but just a preference or a 'good idea'. We all have to be careful about the difference between 'facts' and 'opinions' so we don't pass on opinions to others as facts and so cause things to become confused. In saying all of that, there is definite sense in re-confirming deficiencies in systems to customers, but it is time-consuming, so unless we have to do it, there would be those who would be pleased to avoid keep repeating themselves every time!
very true and it may have been that particular persons own opinion. I am for sure one of the guys who does not want to write an essay after every service.

tick for me every time if it's acceptable

Offline Benzerari

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Strange fire alarm system in the New Year 2008 ???
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2008, 05:00:37 PM »
Quote from: kurnal
Hi Benzerari
The grades you refer to only apply to fire alarm systems for dwelling houses under BS5839 part 6. These systems are mainly interconnected smoke alarms.
What about this? who can give interpretation of the following

Quote from: John ware in Wirring matters magazine
The Grades of system for fire alarm systems in dwellings range from Grade A to Grade F. Grade A and B systems are systems of a type described in BS 5839-1. In a Grade C system, the fire detectors are supplied with a common power supply unit with central control equipment and this type of system normally incorporates a secondary rechargeable battery. Fire alarm systems in dwellings are, in most cases, Grade D, E or F which do not employ a control panel.
Grade C systems i.e. aren't they the systems we are dealing with on our daily basis (conventional and analogue addressable) ones?

Graeme

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Strange fire alarm system in the New Year 2008 ???
« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2008, 05:04:29 PM »
Quote from: Benzerari
Quote from: kurnal
Hi Benzerari
The grades you refer to only apply to fire alarm systems for dwelling houses under BS5839 part 6. These systems are mainly interconnected smoke alarms.
What about this? who can give interpretation of the following

Quote from: John ware in Wirring matters magazine
The Grades of system for fire alarm systems in dwellings range from Grade A to Grade F. Grade A and B systems are systems of a type described in BS 5839-1. In a Grade C system, the fire detectors are supplied with a common power supply unit with central control equipment and this type of system normally incorporates a secondary rechargeable battery. Fire alarm systems in dwellings are, in most cases, Grade D, E or F which do not employ a control panel.
Grade C systems i.e. aren't they the systems we are dealing with on our daily basis (conventional and analogue addressable) ones?
no

Grade A and B but grade A has minor differences to B in the spec of the control panel.

you need to get a copy of 5838-6 as it crossess over into part 1 with Grade A. It's a bit confusing at first but unless you deal with dwellings i.e where people live then Part 1 for buildings is what you will be involved with everyday.

Offline Benzerari

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Strange fire alarm system in the New Year 2008 ???
« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2008, 07:00:07 PM »
Quote from: Graeme
Quote from: Benzerari
Quote from: kurnal
Hi Benzerari
The grades you refer to only apply to fire alarm systems for dwelling houses under BS5839 part 6. These systems are mainly interconnected smoke alarms.
What about this? who can give interpretation of the following

Quote from: John ware in Wirring matters magazine
The Grades of system for fire alarm systems in dwellings range from Grade A to Grade F. Grade A and B systems are systems of a type described in BS 5839-1. In a Grade C system, the fire detectors are supplied with a common power supply unit with central control equipment and this type of system normally incorporates a secondary rechargeable battery. Fire alarm systems in dwellings are, in most cases, Grade D, E or F which do not employ a control panel.
Grade C systems i.e. aren't they the systems we are dealing with on our daily basis (conventional and analogue addressable) ones?
no

Grade A and B but grade A has minor differences to B in the spec of the control panel.

you need to get a copy of 5838-6 as it crossess over into part 1 with Grade A. It's a bit confusing at first but unless you deal with dwellings i.e where people live then Part 1 for buildings is what you will be involved with everyday.
If the grade C systems are not conventional and analogue addressable systems we deal with on every day, so what is grade C then?
Any interpretaion of what John Ware is stating in his article ???????????

I still did not get this point!

Offline Benzerari

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Strange fire alarm system in the New Year 2008 ???
« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2008, 11:19:46 PM »
Finally, I have just received a private e-mail from a colleague in the company saying that the school has recently received an inspection and the system has been accepted OK, except extra signs have been recommended, even the system is not complying to the recommendation of BS5839...

How? I do not know!

Offline kurnal

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Strange fire alarm system in the New Year 2008 ???
« Reply #54 on: January 09, 2008, 08:39:04 AM »
Quote from: Benzerari
If the grade C systems are not conventional and analogue addressable systems we deal with on every day, so what is grade C then?
Any interpretaion of what John Ware is stating in his article ???????????

I still did not get this point!
I think I know where you are coming from now- but can't help you!

The article gives a very clear description of Category D to F systems, it gives a partial (and confusing IMO) description of category A and B systems,  but appears to give very little description of a category C system other than referring to the power supply to the detectors being sourced from a common control panel.

I have never seen a grade C system but will take a look at the BS5839 part 6  later today to see if there is any further information there.
Quote from: Benzerari
Finally, I have just received a private e-mail from a colleague in the company saying that the school has recently received an inspection and the system has been accepted OK, except extra signs have been recommended, even the system is not complying to the recommendation of BS5839...

How? I do not know
Was this recommendation for additional exit signs  as a result of a full fire risk assessment or was it just an isolated  problem noticed by an alarm engineer and brought to the attention of the school?

The reason I ask is that there is a huge problem with Exit signage in this country which has been discussed on this forum before. I was looking at the NECIEC guidance to members on escape lighting and exit signs,  and unfortunately all they have done is adopt the very flawed ICEL guidance as NECIEC policy which is a shame because its full of mistakes and perpetuates the problem.

Offline Benzerari

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Strange fire alarm system in the New Year 2008 ???
« Reply #55 on: January 09, 2008, 11:45:37 AM »
Quote from: kurnal
Quote from: Benzerari
If the grade C systems are not conventional and analogue addressable systems we deal with on every day, so what is grade C then?
Any interpretaion of what John Ware is stating in his article ???????????

I still did not get this point!
I think I know where you are coming from now- but can't help you!

The article gives a very clear description of Category D to F systems, it gives a partial (and confusing IMO) description of category A and B systems,  but appears to give very little description of a category C system other than referring to the power supply to the detectors being sourced from a common control panel.

I have never seen a grade C system but will take a look at the BS5839 part 6  later today to see if there is any further information there.
Quote from: Benzerari
Finally, I have just received a private e-mail from a colleague in the company saying that the school has recently received an inspection and the system has been accepted OK, except extra signs have been recommended, even the system is not complying to the recommendation of BS5839...

How? I do not know
Was this recommendation for additional exit signs  as a result of a full fire risk assessment or was it just an isolated  problem noticed by an alarm engineer and brought to the attention of the school?

The reason I ask is that there is a huge problem with Exit signage in this country which has been discussed on this forum before. I was looking at the NECIEC guidance to members on escape lighting and exit signs,  and unfortunately all they have done is adopt the very flawed ICEL guidance as NECIEC policy which is a shame because its full of mistakes and perpetuates the problem.
No, they had previously an inspection just few days before I been there, I did not notice any thing about signs... but I noticed that the system should be in the ( Mortuary ) and not at the school, it is over...

But, my concern now is that in what basis the inspectors who did inspect that school have accepted the system, the only extra details I have received is that the school does not afford the cost of any upgrade of the fire alarm system, and any way the decision of that, is on the hand of another external office which runing many schools in the area.

Therefore, because they have not got enough budget to cover the system's upgrade, the inspectors accepted the minimum of the system's capabilities.... which is then came back to the general public undestanding when saying:

                                          ' For now, as long as the system is working OK that's fine '

I did not know that's the way it works some times, as I am still learning like any one else, some times I just feel I have not understood any thing especially when the matter is about standards and legislations... probably because it is out of the sphere of my knowledge... but I believe I am not the only one...  at the end of the day when bringing up some times some concern it is for the benefit of every body...

Offline Wiz

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Strange fire alarm system in the New Year 2008 ???
« Reply #56 on: January 09, 2008, 12:42:54 PM »
Benzerari,
Take a bit of advice from someone who has been doing this for 30 years, and also deals with local authority customers:-
Advise your customers of any defficiences in writing and basically leave it at that. Don't try to 'encourage' them to spend any money at this stage by immediately looking for pieces of legislation etc. that support your case. They will think you are trying to force them into spending money and, anyway, they should be aware of any legislation. They are responsible.

If they query your findings, then quote the  B. S. recommendations that are applicable.

If they ask what the ramifications will be if they don't rectify the deficiences, then also quote any legislation that is applicable.

They are likely to carry on using you as a contractor because you haven't 'badgered' them.

If they don't rectify the problems you are covered against any comebacks.

If they decide to rectify the problems you are in a position to quote for the work.

Offline kurnal

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Strange fire alarm system in the New Year 2008 ???
« Reply #57 on: January 09, 2008, 01:26:17 PM »
The commentary in BS5839 part 6 2004 describes a grade C system thus
" A system of fire detectors and alarm sounders (which may be combined in the form of smoke alarms) connected to a common power supply, comprising the normal mains and a standby supply, with central control equipment"

Grade A,B,C systems all have a degree of monitoring - Grade A control and monitoring equipment refers back to BS5839 part 1, grade B monitoring is as per Annex C of BS5839 part 6, whereas there are specific requirements for some monitoring of Grade C systems, these are
- an open circuit or short circuit in any circuit external to the panel serving MCPs, fire detectors or alarm devices this should result in a visual indication at the control panel or a fire alarm system in the dwelling within 100 secs of occurrence and
- a power failure shuld result in a visual indication at the control panel within 30 mins which may be a normally illuminated indicator being extinguished or a fault lamp being lit.

This clause more than any other highlights a major difference between a grade C system under part 6 and a Part 1 system.
Hope this explanation helps - but if you have any technical question I would ask our friend Dr Wiz. He should be free very soon- I can hear Matron coming.

Offline Wiz

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Strange fire alarm system in the New Year 2008 ???
« Reply #58 on: January 09, 2008, 01:31:17 PM »
Quote from: kurnal
........ask our friend Dr Wiz. He should be free very soon- I can hear Matron coming.
It's likely to take far longer than I have the stamina for

Offline Benzerari

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Strange fire alarm system in the New Year 2008 ???
« Reply #59 on: January 09, 2008, 03:40:11 PM »
Quote from: Wiz
Benzerari,
Take a bit of advice from someone who has been doing this for 30 years, and also deals with local authority customers:-
Advise your customers of any defficiences in writing and basically leave it at that. Don't try to 'encourage' them to spend any money at this stage by immediately looking for pieces of legislation etc. that support your case. They will think you are trying to force them into spending money and, anyway, they should be aware of any legislation. They are responsible.

If they query your findings, then quote the  B. S. recommendations that are applicable.

If they ask what the ramifications will be if they don't rectify the deficiences, then also quote any legislation that is applicable.

They are likely to carry on using you as a contractor because you haven't 'badgered' them.

If they don't rectify the problems you are covered against any comebacks.

If they decide to rectify the problems you are in a position to quote for the work.
Thanks for these advice wiz