Common areas of flats

[Mushy]

Hi

sorry if this has been posted before.

Could someone explain the fire safety requirements for common areas of flats. I know someone who lives in a block of 5 flats, these flats are each on their own floor (ie there are 5 floors) she owns her flat as do the other occupants. They all have joint ownership of the common area which is a stairway

when do flats have to have a fire risk assessment carried out? If there is no one employed to work there, have the still got to have one done and if so what is the standard required ie do they need a fire alarm and extinguisher?

Thanks

[kurnal]

The Responsible Person has a duty to carry out an assessment of fire risk of those parts of the building that are subject to the Regulatory Reform fire safety order.

The responsible person (s) may be the owners of the building, any management company they set up, any managing agent they appoint - Any or all of them are responsible to the extent of their level of control.

The significant findings of the risk assessment do not have to be recorded legally in this case but its a good idea to do so,

The extent of the basic fire precautions and maintenance procedures required in the building  will be identified by the risk assessment. If the building is fully compliant with the Buildong Regulations design standards it will have fire resisting doors and walls to each flat ( Doors half hour standard, walls one hour standard)  One hour fire resisting floors, no ancillary accommodation, bin stores, unprotected electrical or gas installations in the stair, the stair will be sterile in fire terms and have means of automatic (smoke detector conrolled)  or manual ventilation ( a big window that can be opened). The stair will have emergency lighting. Each flat will have a lobby inside the main entrance door and its own independent smoke alarm.  If you comply with this standard there would not normally be a need for fire alarms in the common areas, or fire extinguishers due to the risk of vandalism.

However the risk assessment should set out the arrangements for maintenance and testing of the fire safety provisions within the common areas.

If the flats do not conform to these standards then it needs to be treated differently - depending on how far outside the standard you fall it could be a house in multiple occupation and subject to the Housing Act  standards enforced by the Local Authority

[Mushy]

Kurnal

Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my query it is very much appreciated and i will pass this info on to her.

Could you answer one more thing, having looked at a little bit of stuff on the net (a little knowledge is dangerous hey!) in all the stuff i've read it mentions people being employed to work that need a risk assessment done, if no one is employed to work in these flats is a assessment still needed?

Thanks

[kurnal]

Hi Mushy
The Fire safety Order applies to "All Places " with a few defined exceptions- one of these is Domestic premises. The Fire safety Order does not therefore cover the flats themselves but the common staircases and corridors are not Domestic premises and are therefore covered by the order. Nobody lives in the staircase.

A risk assessment is required- but the order goes on to identify only workplaces with 5 or more employees and licensed premises having to record the significant findings. However if it isnt written down how can you prove it has been carried out and how will anyone ever remember to maintain the ventilator or know that they need to take action to prevent a tenant putting a cat flap in their fire resisting entrance door? Recording the risk assessment is therefore good practice.

If you wish to read up on the law and the guidance, heres the order itself

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20051541.htm

see article 3 for details of who is the responsible person,
article 6 as to where the order applies
article 9 as recording the risk assessment

and heres the guidance document.
http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/fire/pdf/151339

[Mushy]

Once again thanks very much kurnal

I may have set that question wrong, if no one is employed to work in the common areas because cleaning etc is done by the flat occupants, therefore no one works at all in the building.

I will read up on your links you posted


cheers

[saddlers]

I had thought of this situation previously, but there are also maintenance personnel to consider, and all common area s will require maintenance/cleaning at some time hence a FRA being required. The fact that this work may be undertaken by residents is irrelevant. There is a person cleaning a common area, and whilst they are located in that common area their fire safety should be considered.

[Mushy]

Saddlers

thanks for your reply

I can understand about the maintenance, say if they get someone in to paint the stairway walls.

If they did it themselves though and were not employed ie not paid because they own the building, I was just wondering if the new fire regulations covered that area

Having said that though I suppose someone will have to check the smoke alarms ie an electrician.

[kurnal]

Yes but dont forget that the fire safety order covers all places (except domestic etc). It does not have to be a workplace to be covered by the fire safety order. A church, village hall, marquee at a village fete, a telephone box, public park are all covered by the fire safety order.

[jokar]

Mushy, as has been pointed out already the Fire safety Order applies to all places, with one exception and 6 exemptions and not just workplaces.  Therefore, the order applies to blocks of flats in the common areas and shared accommodation regardless of whether work is done or not and whether people are employed to work or not.  What has to be done depends on the fire risk assessment and how the outcomes of that will protect relevant persons who may be visitors to the individual flat owners.

[Mushy]

Thanks everyone for all your replies

I now have a better understanding of this legislation and will pass this on

cheers all

[val]

Kurnal,

 I know I sometimes post on here with my tongue in cheek but I must say I am humbled by your patient and extensive support of those posters who come genuinely looking for what to some of us is fairly straight forward answers. You are a credit to the profession.

(And I've only just poured my first gin and tonic)

[messy]

Yes but dont forget that the fire safety order covers all places ...... a telephone box, .....are all covered by the fire safety order.

Do you reckon BT have a written risk assessment for each phone box? (let's hope not)

After all they do employ more than 5 workers??

[kurnal]

Val
Thanks very much for your very kind (if uncharacteristic) comments.

Now have another drink and behave yourself.

A plea to others- I dont mean to hog the forum. Please dont apologise to me for posting as a couple of you have this past couple of days. The more opinions the better. The first to jump in the water is usually the one who drowns.

[Mushy]

Val

It good to hear that this subject is a straight forward question to you

I did a bit of research and I think I may have found the relevant bit in the legislation that states it doesn't have to be a workplace. I went on another forum where a serving fire officer says that if no one works in flats that are totally owned by the occupants then the common area doesn't need a risk assessment done, so there is confusion out there even by some professionals.

Duties under this Order
5. —
(2) Where the premises are not a workplace, the responsible person must ensure
that any duty imposed by articles 8 to 22 or by regulations made under article 24 is
complied with in respect of those premises, so far as the requirements relate to
matters within his control.
(3) Any duty imposed by articles 8 to 22 or by regulations made under article 24
on the responsible person in respect of premises shall also be imposed on every
person, other than the responsible person referred to in paragraphs (1) and (2), who
has, to any extent, control of those premises so far as the requirements relate to
matters within his control.
(4) Where a person has, by virtue of any contract or tenancy, an obligation of
any extent in relation to—
(a) the maintenance or repair of any premises, including anything in or on
premises; or
(b) the safety of any premises,
that person is to be treated, for the purposes of paragraph (3), as being a person
who has control of the premises to the extent that his obligation so extends.
(5) Articles 8 to 22 and any regulations made under article 24 only require the
taking or observance of general fire precautions in respect of relevant persons.

[jokar]

Mushy, that may be just a Fire Brigade interpretation for their individual Policy as regards the enforcement of the Order.  It is not what the law states.