Author Topic: Fire Risk Assessment - School  (Read 29477 times)

Offline Sunny

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Fire Risk Assessment - School
« on: January 22, 2008, 10:43:41 AM »
Hi All,

I've recently took up a new post within a Primary School as Admin Assistant but one of my task role involves me carrying out a thorough Fire Risk Assessment of the whole school.

The thing is there is no procedure/assessment in place which i can follow and review as i go along - i have been advised to do the FRA from scratch using some guidance notes from the West Midlands Fire Service about keeping your school in business.

I've put together few notes and have looked around/inspected the school - all i wanted to know is that should i have underatken some sort of training for this part of my role? Its just that i have worked within the admin/customer service sector for good 10yrs now and have never been involved in carrying out a Fire Risk Assessment so i wanted to ensure that i dont miss anything off.

Plz let me kno wat u lot think - many thanx in advance.

Sunny

Offline kurnal

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Fire Risk Assessment - School
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2008, 10:52:38 AM »
Your first stop should be the www.communities.gov.uk website- follow the links for fire and resilience and then fire safety law and guidance for business.
There is a simple guidance document and more detailed guidance documents for a range of different types of premises- the educatiuonal premises is your first choice but the one for small assembly buildings may also be relevant if the building is also used outside hours for community use.

The West Midlands fire document- from its title may be more about arson prevention and ccontingency planning rather than life safety?

How big is the school?- how many floors, how many staff, how many pupils, any use outside school hours, what type of building- bricks and mortar or prefabricated? How old?

Thats enough for starters I guess.

Offline John Webb

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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2008, 11:08:49 AM »
Congratulations on realising your limitations - that's something many people asked to do the fire risk assessment at their workplace can signally fail to do. The Fire Protection Association www.thefpa.co.uk and others do one-day courses on fire risk assessment (FRA) which should assist you; the FPA also do a DVD-based guide to FRAs and a complete package of DVD and three related books.

You should also download the official guide on Educational Premises from www.firesafetyguides.communities.gov.uk - this gives substantial detail on what is required to comply with the law and should help you to carry out your task.

I assume that your school has appointed a 'Responsible Person' as the law requires; you need to closely liaise with them on the fire risk assessment as eventually they are the one legally responsible for having it done and acting on its findings.

Best of luck!
John Webb
Consultant on Fire Safety, Diocese of St Albans
(Views expressed are my own)

Offline Sunny

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« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2008, 11:15:11 AM »
Thank you both for such swift responses - u've pointed me in the right direction...

John> I assume dat i am d responsible person as there is no one else lookin over this task - i jus hav to put my findings together and produce a FRA report format for head to look over - i was wondering already whether there should be another person as a back-up who looks over findings in details, etc. im' confused?

Offline Ashley Wood

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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2008, 11:51:34 AM »
Sunny, sounds like you need to attend a one day course. It will become a bit clearer then. What you have been asked to do carries a huge responsibility, so do not be afraid to say 'stop-I am not qualified to do this'. Your employer must provide you with training to carry out this task as they would any task they may ask you to do. This is not just another 'tick sheet' exercise. Lives are at stake and your employer needs to act responsibly and not just act to placate the law.

Offline Dinnertime Dave

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« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2008, 11:59:58 AM »
Quote from: kurnal
The West Midlands fire document- from its title may be more about arson prevention and ccontingency planning rather than life safety?
The whole of the West Mids region is pushing this they do include fire risk assessments available from the link below or free hard copy from participating Fire & Rescue services. Two documents are available Keep your Business in Business and Keep your School in Business

http://www.wmarsontaskforce.gov.uk

The feedback I have received from the public is that they are difficult to understand and fill in.

Offline Tom Sutton

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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2008, 02:48:56 PM »
As Kurnal said " from its title may be more about arson prevention and contingency planning rather than life safety?" and the the source of the document "West Midlands Arson Task Force" says it all.

You first need to identify who the Responsible Person is, all the links you require should be found at http://www.firesafe.org.uk/html/legislation/rrfsord.htm
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline John Webb

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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2008, 03:08:05 PM »
Quote from: Sunny
Thank you both for such swift responses - u've pointed me in the right direction...

John> I assume dat i am d responsible person as there is no one else lookin over this task ....
The RR(FS)O (it's a lot shorter to say than the full title!) requires every workplace to appoint a 'Responsible Person' (RP) who is legally 'responsible' for seeing that the requirements of the law are carried out. This is a formal appointment and should be made by the headmaster and school govenors. The person needs to be given a budget and any necessary training so that they can carry out their task properly. Carry on with sorting out the FRA, but if there is no appointed RP this needs to be highlighted at the start of the FRA report.
John Webb
Consultant on Fire Safety, Diocese of St Albans
(Views expressed are my own)

Offline wee brian

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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2008, 04:08:53 PM »
John

Sorry to pick you up mate but the RRFSO doesn't require a Responsible person to be appointed.

But thats not important. The key issue is that Sunny has been given the job to do the FRA. It would be reasonable ask the employer for at least a basic training course. Sunny can then decide to do it alone or take advice from a consultant.

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2008, 05:29:09 PM »
I agree Wee Brian. The responsible person is defined in the order..you cannot appoint one. What the responsible must do is carry out a suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment. They can of course appoint someone to do that on their behalf and that appeas to be you Sunny.

Well done for recognising your limitations and in my opinion you should ask for training and/or further assistance to carry out the task.

Offline Ricardo

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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2008, 05:49:32 PM »
Now my way of thinking in all this is that Article 3(a) of the RR(FSO) would apply to the school.
And it states that a responsible person means in relation to a workplace, the "employer" and this is clearly not Sunny.

Article 18 states that the responsible person (which to me is clearly not Sunny) must appoint one or more
"competent persons" to assist him in undertaking the preventive and protective measures.
Again, at this time this surely cannot be Sunny.

As I always thought that a competent person should have the necessary training, experience, and knowledge in current fire safety legislation and good practices  and realise heir own limitations, to come within that category?
And surely that means more than a 1 day fire risk assessment course, (yes it may give an understanding, but surely not adeqaute to be let loose next day.

Of course no offence to Sunny, but I am sure I am not deemed competent to stand in for Sunny this term( no comments please)

I have recently carried out an audit at a local primary school, really never entered such places in the past, except maybe certain areas for licensing.
And it initially appeared to me that the poor headteacher was given a copy of a FRA, that had been carried out by the council fire advisor, with a load of "significant findings" which were all in the negative, and basically told its now down to you to sort this all out
This included matters relating to means of escape, producing an emeregency plan and fire safety policy, all of which was to me well out of the headteachers remit and control.

The head told me that he and all other heads in our city get an annual budget, each school varying, but his was under £2000, and purely for repair and maintenance, I aksed for what he said things like, decorating the rooms, a new carpet if necessary, repairs in toliets which he said was very common,  he even said repairs to the gutters was a sore point, but his budget had nothing to do with fire safety at all, so just to clarify, I asked if an emergency light, or a fire alarm sounder or call point was damaged or it was identified that several fire exit signs were out of date, would any of that come out his budget , and he replied no.

So it was clear that the headteacher was clearly not the "responsible person under your Article 3(a) it was clearly the employer, yes the headteacher was a responsible person in this case, but only to the extent that was under his control.

So I think it is all wrong for Sunny to be tasked with such an important role especially as the admin assistant.
I believe the schoolshould be taking their responsibilities a lot more seriously than that.
Sunny the above is in no way meant to be a slur on your good self, it is of course only my opinion.
And food for thought

Offline John Webb

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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2008, 07:40:19 PM »
Quote from: wee brian
John

Sorry to pick you up mate but the RRFSO doesn't require a Responsible person to be appointed....
Fair comment - just that the area I'm active in is dealing with 'body corporates' (I think that's the term) in charge of buildings and it makes much sense if one person is appointed to act on their behalf. You can guess who it is at my local church....
John Webb
Consultant on Fire Safety, Diocese of St Albans
(Views expressed are my own)

Offline nearlythere

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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2008, 08:15:10 PM »
Quote from: John_s.webb
Quote from: wee brian
John

Sorry to pick you up mate but the RRFSO doesn't require a Responsible person to be appointed....
Fair comment - just that the area I'm active in is dealing with 'body corporates' (I think that's the term) in charge of buildings and it makes much sense if one person is appointed to act on their behalf. You can guess who it is at my local church....
This is a interesting point, bodys and comittees that is. Would I be right in suggesting that, say in the case of a church, the RP was actually the church committee. The committee is the body of good men (or women) and true who have been elected by the congregation to look after the interests of the church.
 
Who would the law actually prosecute in the case of a church or club or association etc? The congregation? The committee?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline John Webb

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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2008, 08:55:53 PM »
My apologies to Sunny for the deviation away from schools, but that is what happens on these forums!

Nearlythere: In the Church of England the Vicar or Rector or priest in charge, the Churchwardens and the PCC have a joint responsibility for the building and for complying with any legislation that applies to it. Many Non-Conformist churches are run by a body of Trustees or similar, who also have similar responsibilities. The problem with the RR(FS)O and its Guides is that the Responsible Person is clearly meant to be an individual who can keep an eye on the day to day operations of the building - something that's not easy for a body corporate to do.
The Churches Main Committee has a free downloadable "Fire Risk Assessment Principles for Church Premises" compiled by Colin Domville - he does for the whole Methodist Church what I do for my Diocese - and this recommends that trustees should appoint one person as the RP for their premises, although they remain the legally responsible people for implementing the RR(FS)O.
So it is the 'body corporate' who would get hauled off to court for a failure to implement the requirements of the law.

I was vaguely wondering when first responding to Sunny's enquiry if the headteacher and Govenors formed a 'body corporate' in the same sense as committees/trustees did, and I think this influenced my terminology.
John Webb
Consultant on Fire Safety, Diocese of St Albans
(Views expressed are my own)

Offline nearlythere

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« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2008, 07:58:09 AM »
Quote from: John_s.webb
My apologies to Sunny for the deviation away from schools, but that is what happens on these forums!

Nearlythere: In the Church of England the Vicar or Rector or priest in charge, the Churchwardens and the PCC have a joint responsibility for the building and for complying with any legislation that applies to it. Many Non-Conformist churches are run by a body of Trustees or similar, who also have similar responsibilities. The problem with the RR(FS)O and its Guides is that the Responsible Person is clearly meant to be an individual who can keep an eye on the day to day operations of the building - something that's not easy for a body corporate to do.
The Churches Main Committee has a free downloadable "Fire Risk Assessment Principles for Church Premises" compiled by Colin Domville - he does for the whole Methodist Church what I do for my Diocese - and this recommends that trustees should appoint one person as the RP for their premises, although they remain the legally responsible people for implementing the RR(FS)O.
So it is the 'body corporate' who would get hauled off to court for a failure to implement the requirements of the law.

I was vaguely wondering when first responding to Sunny's enquiry if the headteacher and Govenors formed a 'body corporate' in the same sense as committees/trustees did, and I think this influenced my terminology.
Thanks John
I afraid that the Presbyterian churchs in Ireland do not have trustees. Additionally, the minister is technically employed by the congregation and is really answerable to the Elders. The Elders or Vestry who as the senior body, are responsible for the church's pastoral issues and still report to the committee on all matters outside of this area. The committee makes all decisions on the general runing of the church which includes property services.
Your comment about the headteacher reminds me that in N. Ireland, they are employed by the Education Board to run a school so I would think that he/she would be the RP.
What do you think?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.