Decommissioning of old stuff ???

[Benzerari]

Hi All;

I would like to know when commissioning new system and hand it over to the end user, while the old stuff of a dead system still fitted throughout, is it a must or recomended either by the law or standard to decommission the old system completely?

Because this may confuse people in emergency situation they may hit an old dead call point instead of the new one... this applies to a call point signs too?

What do you think?

[Graeme]

Always remove the old system.

[Chris Houston]

I agree it's a good idea, but is that contained in any official guidance or BS beyond the removal of old call points?

[Benzerari]

Always remove the old system.

That's my view too but, the problem is that we have never got a quote for decommissioning particularly when it is a huge site which should take days of decommissioning, I would like to know the position of the legislations or standard so when negotiating with the customer, we can make the point on a clear basis, and not just making the customer feeling we are try to push him to unnecessary spent of money...  

If the system to decommission is so small, please forget this topic, as we may do so while commissioning the new system but the case is more serious with huge sites… and none of us thought, may do so for free...
Is there i.e. any indication in the regulations or standard stating that it has to be included with the commissioning of the new system or it may be separate?... is it the job of the Alarm Company or it is part of the Refurbrishement Company's job?...

Thank you

[AnthonyB]

Removal of the old system isn't always automatic and varying levels occur:
1)Everything is removed
2)Everything except cabling is removed
3)Old detection remains
4)Old detection & sounders remain
5)Everything is left .

As a minimum I require sign relocation and call points removed or taped over as the confusion (& even panic if the old system call point is used and then nothing happens) affects the adequacy/efficacy of the warning system & emergency plan. I prefer when all devices are removed as it's difficult to audit an installed system if the premises has obviously had replacements over the years as it is not always possible to tell which detection, sounders & call points are 'live' and which do nothing except in obvious cases such as the remnants of a 240V system alongside a newer type 24V one. Before anyone says just look at the device list or other paperwork in reality land it is often lacking & no one is quite sure.

[John Dragon]

Even if not asked to do so, we always remove decommissioned call points and cover with blank plates.

[Benzerari]

Even if not asked to do so, we always remove decommissioned call points and cover with blank plates.

That’s grate!

Do you normally do it as part of completing your commissioning job?

How bigger is the system you have ever decommissioned?

Have you done it for free?

Are you ready to do so for free even a huge site?

[Benzerari]

Removal of the old system isn't always automatic and varying levels occur:
1)Everything is removed
2)Everything except cabling is removed
3)Old detection remains
4)Old detection & sounders remain
5)Everything is left .

As a minimum I require sign relocation and call points removed or taped over as the confusion (& even panic if the old system call point is used and then nothing happens) affects the adequacy/efficacy of the warning system & emergency plan. I prefer when all devices are removed as it's difficult to audit an installed system if the premises has obviously had replacements over the years as it is not always possible to tell which detection, sounders & call points are 'live' and which do nothing except in obvious cases such as the remnants of a 240V system alongside a newer type 24V one. Before anyone says just look at the device list or other paperwork in reality land it is often lacking & no one is quite sure.

That's right, I used to be called out for i.e. a bell not working during bell test or a call point smached..., when checked it. it was found to be part of a dead system so what is it the point to repair it or change it? why it should remain on the wall? if triying to convince the customer that all old stuff have to be removed? in what legal basis you should say that to customer?

As long as the site needs re-survey to find out what is what, I would not do it for free to be honest !

[John Dragon]

Even if not asked to do so, we always remove decommissioned call points and cover with blank plates.

That’s grate!

Do you normally do it as part of completing your commissioning job?

How bigger is the system you have ever decommissioned?

Have you done it for free?

Are you ready to do so for free even a huge site?

Yes, 40 ish. yes and yes.

[Graeme]

Benz

you should include removal in your tender. If it's not asked for then add it on your quote as an recommended optional extra.

Most big refurb's i have done,the main contractor's  strip everything out.

If it's replacing an old for new system on a working site,then it's standard for us to remove the old as it's normally asked for too.

[John@EPL]

Like everything costing in can go against you. All you can do is break down the quote showing a decommissioning cost as you can bet the other guys will quote without it and hit them with a quote to decommission when in situ.

  Been on a few sites where existing detectors are still on the ceilings but a new twinflex system is installed via trunking. Not so confusing to someone who knows the difference. Problems occur when council inspections, property buying or selling etc where people tick boxes because there is a valid safety cert or they can see detectors on the ceiling who don't know whats what.

Problem with decommissioning is the holes left in the fire rated ceilings and walls that not only need filling but redecorating, then we can go on to the different coloured paint on the patching up etc.

Is there a blanking plate that fits on to old detector bases?? that would be the quickest and most cost effective solution for the customer and would stop confusion.

[Benzerari]

Benz

you should include removal in your tender. If it's not asked for then add it on your quote as an recommended optional extra.

Most big refurb's i have done,the main contractor's  strip everything out.

If it's replacing an old for new system on a working site,then it's standard for us to remove the old as it's normally asked for too.

Well, the sites we have been involved into commissioning, we have done so stage by stage, each time we commission part of the system the subcontractor remove the old stuff of that part to keep the site well protected, and every thing was run OK till the hand over, only the new system left on the walls and ceilings and in normal operation. But;

The sites we have taken over for servicing are really a different case, we did not fit them, systems have been upgraded several times and have a mixture of old and brand new stuff in the same system, some other old stuff are part of a dead system and that's were the confusion may take place, one of the NHS we are in charge of have i.e. three KAC sort of call points in the same landings area each call point belong to a different live system and as the building has so many departments, some departments have their own system linked to us one way, but they have got their own service company and that is the kind of sites I am talking about, the decommissioning of old stuff may take us days to strip them off... and that is why I am saying I am not ready to do so for free.

[Benzerari]

Also no indication up till now of the decommissioning of old stuff is required by either the legislation or standard and should they be part of the commissioning of new system or not? this is the heart of my enquiry

[Graeme]

Like everything costing in can go against you. All you can do is break down the quote showing a decommissioning cost as you can bet the other guys will quote without it and hit them with a quote to decommission when in situ.

  Been on a few sites where existing detectors are still on the ceilings but a new twinflex system is installed via trunking. Not so confusing to someone who knows the difference. Problems occur when council inspections, property buying or selling etc where people tick boxes because there is a valid safety cert or they can see detectors on the ceiling who don't know whats what.

Problem with decommissioning is the holes left in the fire rated ceilings and walls that not only need filling but redecorating, then we can go on to the different coloured paint on the patching up etc.

Is there a blanking plate that fits on to old detector bases?? that would be the quickest and most cost effective solution for the customer and would stop confusion.

Apollo make a blank S65 cap that fixes onto the base

[Graeme]

Also no indication up till now of the decommissioning of old stuff is required by either the legislation or standard and should they be part of the commissioning of new system or not? this is the heart of my enquiry

cost aside.  IMO you should never leave old call points on a a site that has been upgraded. I have heard of a site near me where the old was left and they had a fire.

The Staff broke the glass on an old mcp and nothing happened.They had to run round the whole site and manually evacuate everyone.

At the very least list removal as an optional extra on your quote that way if your competitors don't price for it you are still pricing for the same work.

You then don't have any come back if you win the tender and at the end you are asked to remove the old stuff.

or state that your price does not include removal of old.

Any sensible person with three quotes on their desk will then ask the other two if theirs includes removal..