Analogue addressable system with sounder circuit not monitored???

[Benzerari]

We have recently discovered that Securiton system which is a German analogue old system with a radial sounder circuit, this later is linked to the panel through a Relay (C, NO), each time we test the system with maintenance mode, every thing was working OK, last week one of the mental patient broken the glass in level 6 fire exits and run away, just after servicing and enabling the out put back to normal, alarm when off for few seconds and stopped, then an earth fault appeared.

The strange thing is that the earth fault come up only when testing alarms live, in maintenance mode it would not, that's what we have found any way.

We used to service the system in silent mode as no alarm was allowed on site the time we test it.

Would this kind of system, still acceptable by BS5839 nowadays, or should it be entirely changed by a BS5839 well complaint system?

Thank you

[David Rooney]

So if I read this right the sounder circuit isn't fault monitored, and when the relay closes you put 24v down the circuit, setting the sounders in to action... bit like a door bell?

This then brings up an earth fault.

a. No it doesn't comply
b. You should have two sounder circuits minimum
c. There is obviously a core down to earth that needs to be traced.

Has the system really not got a monitored sounder circuit ??

[Graeme]

it's probably the reason that the circuit is through a relay to mask the earth fault.

[Benzerari]

So if I read this right the sounder circuit isn't fault monitored, and when the relay closes you put 24v down the circuit, setting the sounders in to action... bit like a door bell?

This then brings up an earth fault.

a. No it doesn't comply
b. You should have two sounder circuits minimum

Thanks for this confirmation Dave, Securiton analogue addressable system is a German old system build up with very slow processor... it is based on old security technology rather than fire alarm technology required by BS5839...

c. There is obviously a core down to earth that needs to be traced.

Yes indeed

Has the system really not got a monitored sounder circuit ??

Yes sounder circuit not monitored, otherwise the earth fault should come up even in quiscent condition isn't it?

[Benzerari]

it's probably the reason that the circuit is through a relay to mask the earth fault.

Tha's right Graem

[Allen Higginson]

So if I read this right the sounder circuit isn't fault monitored, and when the relay closes you put 24v down the circuit, setting the sounders in to action... bit like a door bell?

This then brings up an earth fault.

a. No it doesn't comply
b. You should have two sounder circuits minimum
c. There is obviously a core down to earth that needs to be traced.

Has the system really not got a monitored sounder circuit ??

(b) - not strictly true Dave but good practice!

[David Rooney]

So if I read this right the sounder circuit isn't fault monitored, and when the relay closes you put 24v down the circuit, setting the sounders in to action... bit like a door bell?

This then brings up an earth fault.

a. No it doesn't comply
b. You should have two sounder circuits minimum
c. There is obviously a core down to earth that needs to be traced.

Has the system really not got a monitored sounder circuit ??

(b) - not strictly true Dave but good practice!

errrr this is a radial sounder circuit, you might be allowed to run one circuit through most buildings but a second sounder circuit should be installed even if the sounder is next to the panel....  n'est pas ?

[rushes off to find regs...... =D]

[Allen Higginson]

So if I read this right the sounder circuit isn't fault monitored, and when the relay closes you put 24v down the circuit, setting the sounders in to action... bit like a door bell?

This then brings up an earth fault.

a. No it doesn't comply
b. You should have two sounder circuits minimum
c. There is obviously a core down to earth that needs to be traced.

Has the system really not got a monitored sounder circuit ??

(b) - not strictly true Dave but good practice!

errrr this is a radial sounder circuit, you might be allowed to run one circuit through most buildings but a second sounder circuit should be installed even if the sounder is next to the panel....  n'est pas ?

[rushes off to find regs...... =D]

Ahhhh,but you weren't specific on the radial part!Loop powered sounder,first on loop then isolator??

[Benzerari]

So if I read this right the sounder circuit isn't fault monitored, and when the relay closes you put 24v down the circuit, setting the sounders in to action... bit like a door bell?

This then brings up an earth fault.

a. No it doesn't comply
b. You should have two sounder circuits minimum
c. There is obviously a core down to earth that needs to be traced.

Has the system really not got a monitored sounder circuit ??

(b) - not strictly true Dave but good practice!

Buzz, What is the difference between what you said and what Dave have said? the system is not complying means it is a good practise if it does! but David did not mention it must be changed did he?

[Allen Higginson]

So if I read this right the sounder circuit isn't fault monitored, and when the relay closes you put 24v down the circuit, setting the sounders in to action... bit like a door bell?

This then brings up an earth fault.

a. No it doesn't comply
b. You should have two sounder circuits minimum
c. There is obviously a core down to earth that needs to be traced.

Has the system really not got a monitored sounder circuit ??

(b) - not strictly true Dave but good practice!

Buzz, What is the difference between what you said and what Dave have said? the system is not complying means it is a good practise if it does! but David did not mention it must be changed did he?

Sorry but we went slightly off topic - in this case the system has serious issues which need resolved.As David has said where radial soounder circuits (conventional) are used then there should be two.They do not have to be split throughout the installation (as was previous practice) but a single sounder on circuit 2 at the panel with all others on circuit one conforms.
In the addressable loop sounders you can only have one loop with all sounders on it provided that the first device is a sounder followed by an isolator.This means that you have in theory two sounder circuits should there be a short on the loop etc.

[David Rooney]

Ahhhh,but you weren't specific on the radial part!Loop powered sounder,first on loop then isolator??

Buzz you know you are my hero but after all "radial" is mentioned in the first line of the first post.......hmmmm !?

[Allen Higginson]

Ahhhh,but you weren't specific on the radial part!Loop powered sounder,first on loop then isolator??

Buzz you know you are my hero but after all "radial" is mentioned in the first line of the first post.......hmmmm !?

Ahhh,but I drifted off topic but point duly noted!

[monkeh]

securiton is swiss, and what is being used to switch the relay?

what power source is being used to drive the sounder circuit?  

normally the sounder circuits are powered off som 81 cards (card with 3 relays, 24v in, and loop in and out), with the 3 sounder circuits on one side, and the loop in/out and 24v in on the other side.

i'm assuming one of these circuits is being use to switch the relay?

sounds like water damage to me tbh, seeing as the fault only appears with voltage on the circuit.

[Benzerari]

securiton is swiss, and what is being used to switch the relay?

what power source is being used to drive the sounder circuit?  

normally the sounder circuits are powered off som 81 cards (card with 3 relays, 24v in, and loop in and out), with the 3 sounder circuits on one side, and the loop in/out and 24v in on the other side.

i'm assuming one of these circuits is being use to switch the relay?

sounds like water damage to me tbh, seeing as the fault only appears with voltage on the circuit.

Monkeh, you seem you have already dealt with Securiton system if you have any English, French or Arabic version of its guides that would be grate to send me a copy, we have got German version and none of us speak German, apparently Securiton Company does not make them any more...

[Benzerari]

Monkeh I have got a little quiry for you as well;

You know when you set the zones of Securiton analogue addressable system in maintenance mode (Silent mode) and carry on with the testing, Securiton heads can be triggered in 1 to 2 seconds when testing them, they are so sensitive, not like any other make such Apollo or Hochiki...

I have been thinking each time I serviced the system in maintenance mode, probably this later is for testing the preAlarm threshold level and NOT the true fire thereshold level? that is why the LEDs turn on so quick when testing detectors... the fact that if testing the system live, the triggering would take longer time...

Is that Correct?

What do you think?

Thank you