Kibab Shop

[stewbow]

A local Kibab Shop that has been operating for about 15 years, has applied for a late liscence. As part of the application process, a Fire Risk Assessment has been requested.
It is a ground floor business, and there is a seperate entrance to a flat upstairs.
The kibab guy owns the whole building, and he has insisted that he has no intention of letting anybody occupy the upstairs flat.
A FRA has been carried out, and a visiting FO is unhappy that there is no mention of the composition of the ceiling. He is also suggesting that a Fire Alarm be fitted to allert the occupiers of the flat.
Is there a need for uprating the ceiling and fitting an alarm if as stated the flat is going to remain un-occupied?

[nearlythere]

A local Kibab Shop that has been operating for about 15 years, has applied for a late liscence. As part of the application process, a Fire Risk Assessment has been requested.
It is a ground floor business, and there is a seperate entrance to a flat upstairs.
The kibab guy owns the whole building, and he has insisted that he has no intention of letting anybody occupy the upstairs flat.
A FRA has been carried out, and a visiting FO is unhappy that there is no mention of the composition of the ceiling. He is also suggesting that a Fire Alarm be fitted to allert the occupiers of the flat.
Is there a need for uprating the ceiling and fitting an alarm if as stated the flat is going to remain un-occupied?

I would have thought that if the owner gives a written undertaking that he will not let out the flat then that should be that.
You cannot risk assess a condition which does not exist.

[slubberdegullion]

The private dwelling above the shop is very unlikely to need inclusion in the risk assessment whether occupied or not.  The risk assessment should only include it and the separating measures if a fire in the dwelling would threaten people in the shop and not the other way round.

The state of the ceiling separating the shop and the dwelling has very little to do with the fire safety within the shop and so is not relevant for the risk assessment in the shop, again, whether occupied or not.  

What the FSO is asking for is a building regulations matter.  If this building has been recently converted to this configuration then the ceiling should have been made 60 minutes FR.

As the kebab shop has been there for 15 years I guess this is not a recent conversion so building control wont be interested.

The alarm and the work to the ceiling that the FSO asked for are probably nothing to do with the fire risk assessment and so are not enforcable.  What they are though are sound pieces of advice if the flat ever becomes occupied.

Any part of the escape route common to the flat and the shop will fall within the FRA.

Stu

[jokar]

So no one believes that the occupiers of the flat are relevant people then?  It has to be detailed within the FRA and the risks to the occupiers dealt with.  However, if as above there are no occupiers then that comment should be included then if it is occupied the FRA will be reviewed.

[nearlythere]

So no one believes that the occupiers of the flat are relevant people then?

Yes Jokar, I do not believe they are.

[CivvyFSO]

I agree with nearlythere, at the moment it is an empty premises. No relevant persons, no extra risk. An FSO could be quite anal and go for seperating purpose groups under article 8, using general fire precautions as a means for getting compartmentation in. (Measures for reducing the spread of fire)

If the flat is occupied then the persons in that flat become relevant persons, and as such measures should be in place to protect them from a fire in the kebab shop. If this was the case then these measures form part of the significant findings that should be recorded.

Plus: If the FSO is bothered about the flat becoming occupied  (And providing it really would be a risk if it were occupied) then a restriction/prohibition notice is a reasonable option in the circumstances. As part of the notice they can list the work that needs doing to allow sleeping on the premises. Then Mr Kebab shop owner has a legal notice stopping him using the floor for a flat, free advice on what to do if he wants to use it as a flat, and he doesn't have to spend any money.

[nearlythere]

So no one believes that the occupiers of the flat are relevant people then?

Yes Jokar, I do not believe they are.

Can I clarify my statement by saying that I don't believe they are relevant persons until they are using a common escape route.

[CivvyFSO]

From Article 2, Interpretation:

"Relevant persons" means -

(b) any person in the immediate vicinity of the premises who is at risk from a fire on the premises

Without any compartmentation in place anyone in the flat is at risk from a fire in the kebab shop and as such Mr Kebab shop owner has a duty to protect them from such an occurence.

[Dinnertime Dave]

So no one believes that the occupiers of the flat are relevant people then?

Yes Jokar, I do not believe they are.

I believe they are too

[kurnal]

The occupiers of the flat would be relevant persons in the event of a fire in the kebab shop unless they have adequate fire separation- normally 1 hr. However if they dont exist they aren't relevant and dont have to be considered. The risk assessment for the kebab shop would require review if the flat did become occupied and you can bet your bottom dollar it will.

Nobody can afford to leave property unoccupied.

Now that would be a nightmare to enforce (if there was reason to do so.)

[Ken Taylor]

I bet that you could also bet the same dollar, Kurnal, that when it is occupied, Mr Kebab won't rush to have his FRA updated - even if the fire separation is useless. If the FO is of the opinion that there would be a significant risk there needs to be something in writing and, preferably enforceable to require the work.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Now that would be a nightmare to enforce (if there was reason to do so.)

If there is a reason to do so - I agree entirely but following the agreed 'Protocol between LHA and the fire and rescue authorities to improve fire safety' my local housing authority is digging out all its problem files and drip feeding one a week. If the information in our file indicates 60minutes FR and independent M of E my response is by way of a letter pointing out their responsibilities under the RRO if the evidence isn’t there I visit. I’m spending time visiting all sorts of shops with flats above.  

Having said that we have come across a number of death traps with enforcement and prohibition taking place.

[jokar]

Now that is what the legislation is about.  Targetting certain areas to ensure that the enforcers enforce the legislation and that people who lose their lives behind their own front door are protected from unscrupulous or unknowing landlords.

[nearlythere]

If you agree that the person in the flat over the kebab shop is a relevant person then you must agree that everybody in purpose built private flats with a common escape route is also relevant. Do you then have to gain access to every flat in order to carry out the RA.

[Midland Retty]

If you agree that the person in the flat over the kebab shop is a relevant person then you must agree that everybody in purpose built private flats with a common escape route is also relevant. Do you then have to gain access to every flat in order to carry out the RA.

I agree but we're going off the scenario posed by the original poster. I wont take that particular poser any further for now in case my brain explodes or is springboarded into oblivion.

Where you have mixed use buildings such as flats above commercial premises the commercial premises must ( and there are no ifs, no buts, or no maybes with this ) take into consideration those relevant persons living above

As you say Nearlythere if no one is living in the flat there is no problem but if someone does move in its "review your risk assessment time"

There has got to be provisions put in place to protect the residents.

Even if you put in 60 minutes separation with no AFD and treat it as a seperate occupany it still has to be identified  / addressed in Mr "No residents live here honest Guv" Kebab's fire risk assessment.

How could you not do an assessment on it?