Author Topic: Change of Use to B&B, Part B regs and RRO compliance  (Read 48131 times)

Offline timandfi

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Change of Use to B&B, Part B regs and RRO compliance
« on: February 11, 2008, 07:03:54 PM »
Hi
We are in the process of renovating an old Victorian 3 storey house into a B&B and have hit issues with complying to part b building regs (means of warning and escape). Our local building control have changed their requirement 3 times, initially being AFD system and fire doors but are now insisting on lobbies to ground and first floor rooms given only one open stairway. We do not want to compromise safety but do want to retain integrity of the building. Due to layout we cannot do the lobby appaoch so initially looked at a sprinkler system as a compensatory feature but have run into problems with this due to water flow and pressure plus high ongoing costs and lack of companies willing to quote. We have now instructed a Fire Protection specialist (30 yrs service in brigade) who has suggested a access panel in the roof which looks a bit like a velux window and opens automatically if a smoke alarm goes off. This will mean us taking down the roof on the second floor landing and making a sort of shaft to the roof space, but may well be the best option. We will also be installing a fully addressable L2 (or L1 if required as a compensatory feature) AFD system and fire doors.

To you experts out there - does the above seem an acceptable solution for a 6 bedroom B&B and do you think Building regs and a consutling fire officer would accept? Can anyone else think of any other compensatory measures for not having lobbies or any reasoning which suggests the property will be just as safe without lobbies which is what the Building Regs people say they must have if we do not fit lobbies?
Other info potentially of use:
1. Ground, 1st and second floors. No basement.
2. Total height to 2nd floor (floorboards) from ground outside door is 7.3 m
3. According to my survey when we bought the house floorspace is 213.88 m sq
4. travelling is via a staircase (but think it is classed as unprotected as it is the original Victorain mahogony staircase?) all the doors onto the staircase are firedoors with the exception of a cupboard) Bottom of staircase exists to the final exit (front door) via an entrance vestibule (about 4 feet in depth)

Thanks

Offline kurnal

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Change of Use to B&B, Part B regs and RRO compliance
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2008, 08:07:43 PM »
Timandfi
I have read and re-read your posting and cannot make sense of why lobbies are being required and the proposed consultants solution. There are many smallish 3 storey hotels and B&Bs with a single protected staircase and full detection in all areas. I can only assume there is something unusual about the layout such as long dead end corridors or inner rooms or open plan staircase or something?  
Have the building control given any justification for requiring lobbies?  

Did your consultant have experience in a fire safety enforcement department or was he just an operational chap?

Have you downloaded the Fire Safety Order guidance documents from the http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/fire/firesafetyrisk4
 website  and the building Regulations approved document B from the planning portal site?

Take a look at this thread which may be relevant to your quey:

http://www.fire.org.uk/punbb/upload/viewtopic.php?id=2493

Offline timandfi

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Change of Use to B&B, Part B regs and RRO compliance
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2008, 09:03:59 PM »
Hi Kurnal

Yes staicase is the original mahogony staircase but is as I understand it now protected as all doors onto it are firedoors and deposits to the final exit with 4 feet of the base of the staircase. Building regs just quote and quote para 4.34 of approved document B, the provision of lobbies as it is a 3 storey building. They say as we will not (we cannot) put in lobbies we need compensatory measures or justification to prove it will be as safe as if it had lobbies - any ideas?
Building regs say the clause comes into effect because we will be applying for change of use to a B&B which they view as a material change hence the application of part B.
I'm confident we can meet all the RRO requirements just part B which is the problem.

I've got a pdf of the floor layout and a photo of the stircase if you want to see?

Fire safety chap did hold a post in a large hotel chain as their fire safety officer hence industry experience and was on the inspection side (sorry can't recall proper name for it) in the brigade.

thanks

Offline wee brian

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Change of Use to B&B, Part B regs and RRO compliance
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2008, 09:06:07 PM »
Sounds like your consultant is a bit of a plumb. As kurnal is (politely) suggesting 30 years in the brigade doesnt make you a design expert.

As for building control changing their minds - Its you or your design team who have to work out what is necessary and then get the design approved. If you ask an enforcement officer what he wants he will ask for gold plated door handles.

Try and get a full plans approval before you spend too much, once the plan is approved the BCO can't change his mind.

To be honest this aint hard. A professional building surveyor or architect should be able to sort this out without needing a fire safety consultant (oops that's me out of a job).

Offline timandfi

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Change of Use to B&B, Part B regs and RRO compliance
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2008, 09:09:38 PM »
We have got a full plans conditional approval but only if we install a sprinkler system (this was on building regs advise, I know what you mean now about gold taps!) but we then encounted the problems with installing this and are now looking for alternative solutions.
Building regs will not budge and as I said just quote part b clause 4.34.

Offline kurnal

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Change of Use to B&B, Part B regs and RRO compliance
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2008, 10:15:29 PM »
4.34 is all very well as a goal  when starting with a blank sheet of paper for a new building (and still nearly everyone ignores it because it can be so disproportionate) but in an existing building conversion of only three floors it cannot be reasonable or achieved in most cases. Why is it local authority and goverment officials are always so good at finding imaginative ways to spend somebody elses money?

Yes email the plans across would be interested in taking a look- but am away for a couple of days so may be Thursday before I get to see them.
How entrenched has this issue become and I presume the application for approval has been made which would prevent you from going down the approved inspector route?

In this case if it has become entrenched you will have to construct an argument back from basics, identify and analyse the possible benefits a lobby may provide (Note nowhere is the size of a lobby defined!) and then work the argument back from there. I think thats another angle that has been aired on this forum in the past.

Offline kurnal

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Change of Use to B&B, Part B regs and RRO compliance
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2008, 11:27:14 PM »
Thanks for the  email - had a quick look, see the problems making lobby approach impossible, certainly on the first floor, would be interested to see a photo of the ground floor  looking towards the kitchen from the front door.

Also theres a difficult little cupboard on first floor level on the plan without fire door?

I misread your first posting about the ventilation solution and misunderstood where he was coming from. Trouble is creating a negative pressure in the staircase will not do much to protect the persons trying to escape as it is likely to draw smoke from a room on fire into the stair just as persons are needing to escape. Ventilation of stairs is ok for firefighters when it is already full of smoke as they arrive  but the need in this case is to keep it clear of smoke for long enough for the fire to be detected, the people to be awaken and to respond, and to travel from their room to a place of safety. This is the role of the fire detection system and the fire door in the design of the building- the remit of the building inspector- and the way the building is furnished and used- the remit of the fire authority.

If its not too late I would go back to  a written fire strategy document to include an analysis of the benefits of a lobby, what it does and how it does it,  and explore how much contribution this makes to the available time for safe evacuation of the building, what limitations it creates, what can go wrong with it, what are the other costs in terms of use of the building and spoiling of the character. Now if you can get the inspector to recognise weaknesses of these improvised lobbies in an existing building then you can start to get him to perhaps start to take cognisance of the role of management strategies.

Sprinklers were a great idea- they bring benefits far beyond compensation for the lack of lobbies. The benefits are out of proportion - and so are the costs. They are a great solution but not on a like for like level playing field comparison.

Have you been down the path of offering a full BS5839 part 1 detection and alarm system with multi sensor detection, heat, dual chamber oprical smoke and CO which should ensure the earliest detection of most types of fire together with self closers and the highest standard of fire  doors and smoke seals?

Offline timandfi

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Change of Use to B&B, Part B regs and RRO compliance
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2008, 08:50:12 AM »
Thanks for all your help.

Why would having a plan already approved prevent us using an approved inspector? Could we not submit a new plan from scratch, obviously paying a new fee? Relations with the authority are not good although think using the FPE has helped but no real proof of that until things move along. We feel they have backed themselves into a corner insisting on the lobbies and do not now want to loose credibility by deviating.
I have suggested an L1 system as a compensatory measure, offered to put in 60 minute fire doors, use fireproof paint etc but can't say anyone has been too interested.
How would we go about getting a written fire strategy document, not something I would feel comfortable doing myself and think the local authority would ignore it if it did not come from a professional as they have already indicated this. What sort of cost are we looking at for this tye of thing? I guess I am thinking if we could submit a new full plans proposal to an approved inspector with a fire strategy document then this could be a better way forward than the velux smoke extraction. I guess my idea would be a consultant who could project manage the whole thing interms of putting the plan and fire strategy document together, submitting it to an approved inspector and running with it through to approval stage.

Putting a firedoor on the cupboard on the first floor would not be an issue at all. Will try and get a photo from bottom of staircase to kitchen door and mail to you.
Probably does not help but forgot to mention earlier that the property was a B&B until 1996, hence why it already has soe fire doors and an old AFD system (we never intending using this). It was taken out of business rates in 1996 and whilst there is no planning permission converting it back to a residential dwelling it seems the council have no record of a it ever being a B&B hence why we need change of use consent.

Offline Big A

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Change of Use to B&B, Part B regs and RRO compliance
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2008, 03:39:16 PM »
Quote from: timandfi
Thanks for all your help.

Probably does not help but forgot to mention earlier that the property was a B&B until 1996, hence why it already has soe fire doors and an old AFD system (we never intending using this). It was taken out of business rates in 1996 and whilst there is no planning permission converting it back to a residential dwelling it seems the council have no record of a it ever being a B&B hence why we need change of use consent.
If you could find proof that your premises had been a B&B previously, would that help to side-step the council?

Offline timandfi

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Change of Use to B&B, Part B regs and RRO compliance
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2008, 04:11:53 PM »
I guess I have had proof in terms of the Valuation Office have confirmed to me that the premises were registered for business rates as a B&B until 1996 (they told me the rateable value) and then transfered back to residential council tax, the BCO also new it was a B&B until 1996, not sure how?
I'm not sure that it would help though as is there not some sort of 10 year rule in terms of planning? So as it has been a nome from 1996 to 2007 it is over 10 years?  
It would be a fantastic outcome if that was the case as I guess it would mean that we did not need pp for change of use and as such BC would not be involved in the same way. But I don't think it is going to happen!

I have manged to find out that we could put in another full plans application, maybe using an approved inspector, so maybe it is worth spending or funds on what Kurnal suggested in terms of justification and additional measures eg upgraded AFD rather than the ventilation approach previously suggested to us. Is there a common view on how acceptable this maybe? As a novice to this who all along has wanted to do things above board but reasonably, fairly and sympathetically to the building it is all a bit overwhelming and confusing with the differing views and advise.

Midland Retty

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Change of Use to B&B, Part B regs and RRO compliance
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2008, 04:47:30 PM »
I can see why you are confused!!

To be perfectly honest I would have thought an L1 system with 30 minute fire doors would have been the way forward in these premises. I dont even think 60 minute doors are required, for a start are the walls 60 minute rated cos if not there's no point.

Clearly I haven't seen the property and there maybe reasons why the Build. Control Off has asked for additional measures. But I can't see why on the info you have posted.

Any chance you can contact the BCO again and ask him why he has asked for lobbies or similar solutions? and then post his reply here so we can all scrutinise it further...

What is for sure is that the smoke control /ventilation system proposed is of no benefit and as Kurnal said just wouldn't really work.

Im just totaly mistified why the BCO wants these extra bits and pieces ... it just doesn't scan...

Offline Dragonmaster

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« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2008, 05:09:24 PM »
Far be it from me to cast nasturtiums on the knowledge of BCO's, but perhaps this one is actually looking at smoke ingress into the escape route, which is the main reason for asking for lobbies.
"Never do today what will become someone's else's responsibility tomorrow"

Offline timandfi

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Change of Use to B&B, Part B regs and RRO compliance
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2008, 05:32:55 PM »
Hi Midland Retty

Yes we have challenged the BCO (head of) who is backing up his team, here is an extract from reply to our challenge, I have XXX anything which may shown anyones name..let me know your what you think to the logic:.......(I should also point out at the stage previous to this we had be advised by one of the BCO's to submit a letter asking for a relaxation of the regulation, no mention of any compensatory features required and in our ignorance we did this and you guessed it, it was rejected.) also happy to email anyone floorplans and a picture of the staircase if you are interested.

Letter as follows:

You are correct in stating that Approved Document B allows suitable alternative solutions to those contained in the document.  The difficulty that arises when an alternative solution is proposed is concerned with assessing the alternative proposal.  Approved Documents set out details of how the mandatory requirements of the regulations can be met.  Anyone wishing to offer alternative solutions should set out how and why the alternative is capable of meeting the mandatory requirement.

It is not permissible to merely omit part of the Approved Document requirements without there being clear evidence that to do so would not reduce the standard of safety in the building.  Where people wish to deviate by omitting a feature there is an implicit requirement that some compensatory measures will be applied that results in an equivalent degree of safety.  

An alternative approach to following approved document requirements is to provide an engineered solution that takes into account all of the factors that influence safety, quantifies these factors and demonstrates an appropriate solution.  Such an approach will involve engaging an appropriately qualified fire engineer.

In the case of your development, AD B1 para 4.34 clearly requires that, where there is only one escape stairway serving a building with more than one storey above the ground storey, the added protection of a protected lobby or corridor is required.  In addition to this appropriate means of warning of fire is required.  BS 5839 -1:2002 indicates an L1 or L2 system is appropriate.  The difference between the two is that L2 systems are fitted in defined parts of the building whereas L1 systems are fitted throughout.  In practice it is recognised in the British Standard that, because of the need to specify most rooms in small premises such as this one, the code effectively requires L1 in most situations.  Escape lighting is required in all escape routes.

The above paragraph sets out the basic Approved Document requirements.  Your proposal, if lobbies are omitted, provides no significant additional compensatory measures.  Neither does it provide any quantified and reasoned argument to demonstrate the building would be less safe than is required if the lobbies were omitted.  To permit the development to proceed without the lobbies would, therefore, in the absence of compensatory measures or justification in the form of an engineered solution, be to simply ignore the guidance.  As I have indicated, the design can be based on a fire engineering solution in which protection is provided to compensate for departure for some departure from normal guidance.  The omission of the lobbies must be justified.

Insofar as your comments about an nearby authority are concerned if you provide me with the details I will explain the requirements and the only acceptable approach to the individual concerned.

Finally I would point out that on receipt of your previous letter the matter was again raised with a Fire Officer (not Mr XXXX) and he confirmed the Fire Authorities opposition to approval of the scheme without the provision of lobbies or a suitable engineered solution or justification.

Offline nearlythere

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« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2008, 06:04:16 PM »
Quote from: timandfi
Hi Midland Retty

Yes we have challenged the BCO (head of) who is backing up his team, here is an extract from reply to our challenge, I have XXX anything which may shown anyones name..let me know your what you think to the logic:.......(I should also point out at the stage previous to this we had be advised by one of the BCO's to submit a letter asking for a relaxation of the regulation, no mention of any compensatory features required and in our ignorance we did this and you guessed it, it was rejected.) also happy to email anyone floorplans and a picture of the staircase if you are interested.

Letter as follows:

You are correct in stating that Approved Document B allows suitable alternative solutions to those contained in the document.  The difficulty that arises when an alternative solution is proposed is concerned with assessing the alternative proposal.  Approved Documents set out details of how the mandatory requirements of the regulations can be met.  Anyone wishing to offer alternative solutions should set out how and why the alternative is capable of meeting the mandatory requirement.

It is not permissible to merely omit part of the Approved Document requirements without there being clear evidence that to do so would not reduce the standard of safety in the building.  Where people wish to deviate by omitting a feature there is an implicit requirement that some compensatory measures will be applied that results in an equivalent degree of safety.  

An alternative approach to following approved document requirements is to provide an engineered solution that takes into account all of the factors that influence safety, quantifies these factors and demonstrates an appropriate solution.  Such an approach will involve engaging an appropriately qualified fire engineer.

In the case of your development, AD B1 para 4.34 clearly requires that, where there is only one escape stairway serving a building with more than one storey above the ground storey, the added protection of a protected lobby or corridor is required.  In addition to this appropriate means of warning of fire is required.  BS 5839 -1:2002 indicates an L1 or L2 system is appropriate.  The difference between the two is that L2 systems are fitted in defined parts of the building whereas L1 systems are fitted throughout.  In practice it is recognised in the British Standard that, because of the need to specify most rooms in small premises such as this one, the code effectively requires L1 in most situations.  Escape lighting is required in all escape routes.

The above paragraph sets out the basic Approved Document requirements.  Your proposal, if lobbies are omitted, provides no significant additional compensatory measures.  Neither does it provide any quantified and reasoned argument to demonstrate the building would be less safe than is required if the lobbies were omitted.  To permit the development to proceed without the lobbies would, therefore, in the absence of compensatory measures or justification in the form of an engineered solution, be to simply ignore the guidance.  As I have indicated, the design can be based on a fire engineering solution in which protection is provided to compensate for departure for some departure from normal guidance.  The omission of the lobbies must be justified.

Insofar as your comments about an nearby authority are concerned if you provide me with the details I will explain the requirements and the only acceptable approach to the individual concerned.

Finally I would point out that on receipt of your previous letter the matter was again raised with a Fire Officer (not Mr XXXX) and he confirmed the Fire Authorities opposition to approval of the scheme without the provision of lobbies or a suitable engineered solution or justification.
I think one of your problems is that AFD does not provide adequate protection to the stairway from smoke. Lobby protection gives improved smoke protection in single stairway conditions. Because of the sleeping risk would there not be a AFD system installed anyway?
A resolution may be a pressurised system for the stairway or an alternative MOE from the upper floor levels.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline timandfi

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« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2008, 06:20:31 PM »
So what makes you think the ADF is not sufficient, we will have smoke detectors, emergency lighting, signage to all the escape route. The AFD was passed on the full plans sunmission at L2 level (but also then with a sprinkler system to the escape route as BCO had requested, see first post). No possibility of an alternative MOE (method of escape?) to second floor, the house is not that big! Beleive the travel distant is actually within that of a small premises scope, but obviously we do not fit that criteria as have the second floor.
All along we have said would be happy to go to L1 if it helps but no one seems interested.