RRO Fire Safety Provision - Common Areas, Purpose Built Flats.

[BRG]

I am a new member and have recently been asked advice on the appropriate provision of fire precautions within the common ways for an estate of purpose built flats. I would appreciate the comments of other members, details are as follows:

Estate of 6 blocks of purpose designed 3 storey – G, 1st, 2nd residential apartment blocks;
Six or eight flats in each block;
Constructed 1960’s;
Height to top floor around 4.5m – 5m;
All upper floors have balconies which are not connected;
Single centrally located solid staircase serving each level, open top to bottom;
No lobby approach;
No opportunity to provide lobby protection;
No ‘lobby protection’ within the flats;
Solid floors;
Doors to flats are not fire resisting;
Small timber cupboard on ground floor housing electrical intake serving lighting to the staircase;
Travel Distances approx 25m / 27m to exit from top floor.  

Regards

BRG

[kurnal]

Are these in England?
Can you be a little more precise on the height of the top floor- 4.5m is an important threshold in England?
When you say no lobby protection in flast does the entrance door open directly into a room?
Are any of the habitable rooms Inner Rooms?
Any vents or opening wiondows to common staircase?
How many flats per floor?
Do the flats have any smoke alarms in private accommodation?
Are they rented or owned?
Is there any fire alarms or emergency lighting?

[nearlythere]

I am a new member and have recently been asked advice on the appropriate provision of fire precautions within the common ways for an estate of purpose built flats. I would appreciate the comments of other members, details are as follows:

Estate of 6 blocks of purpose designed 3 storey – G, 1st, 2nd residential apartment blocks;
Six or eight flats in each block;
Constructed 1960’s;
Height to top floor around 4.5m – 5m;
All upper floors have balconies which are not connected;
Single centrally located solid staircase serving each level, open top to bottom;
No lobby approach;
No opportunity to provide lobby protection;
No ‘lobby protection’ within the flats;
Solid floors;
Doors to flats are not fire resisting;
Small timber cupboard on ground floor housing electrical intake serving lighting to the staircase;
Travel Distances approx 25m / 27m to exit from top floor.  

Regards


BRG

If the building was purpose built then I can't understand why the flat entrance doors are not 1/2 FR. If they are enclosing a common stairway or corridor then they should be.

[wee brian]

Yup - but it's 1960s so there wasnt much in the way of building regs.

[Tom Sutton]

Yup - but it's 1960s so there wasn’t much in the way of building regs.

`

Maybe but there was Building Control and they used CP3 Chapter 4 Part 1 I think for flats and the answer could be found there.

[nearlythere]

Yup - but it's 1960s so there wasn’t much in the way of building regs.

`

Maybe but there was Building Control and they used CP3 Chapter 4 Part 1 I think for flats and the answer could be found there.

I can remember using CP3 and I certainly am sure that common escape routes were protected with fire doors.

[wee brian]

It wouldnt have been required for low rise flats - as I understand it there weren't any regs that covered it.

[BRG]

Thanks to all for responding,
I have canvassed opinion because the requirements in respect of the enforcement of Fire Safety in residential accommodation in purpose built flats (particularly the common areas under RRO) is an extremely topical subject for which there does not seem to be a universal consensus of opinion (see January Edition of Fire Risk Management.
Further details required are as follows:
- The flats are located on the south coast in England;
- I realise that the height to top floor is important but cannot be precise yet;
- have only been able to gain entry to one flat, entrance doors opens into a hallway from where access is gained to all accommodation;
- Top hung vents (upvc double glazed units) are located at each upper storey level;
- Nos of flats per floor: 2 in smaller blocks, 3 in larger blocks;
- unable to confirm that the private accommodation has been protected by smoke alarms;
- There is no fire alarm equipment or emergency lighting in the common ways;
- I believe most flats are occupied by owners with a small number being rented.
More info:
- The local fire brigade community fire safety officer has recommended emergency lighting, automatic fire detection and sounders in the common ways, with a heat detector inside the entrance door of each flat;
- I confirm that doors to flats are fire resisting but without door closers, sorry to mislead you;
- At time of writing, have been unable to speak with local Fire Brigade Fire Safety Officer;
- Neighbouring Fire Brigade advise against installing fire alarm systems within this type of property.

Regards

BRG

[jayjay]

I need to convince a Housing Athority on the standards of fire safety in some old blocks of Flats and would like a copy of CP3 Chapter 4 Part 1 can anyone provide an electronoc copy ? should be no copyright issues now.

[jokar]

Just go to show then that some FRS personnel think they no some things and prove they do not.  With apologies to those that do of course.

[kurnal]

Jay Jay if you are struggling I do have a hard copy - do you need all of it or just parts?

BRG it sounds typical of its day, the provision of commoon areas fire alarm or not can only be  down to judgement based on a site visit.

With single stair and two flats per floor, self closing entrance doors, one hour walls and floors and openable vents in the stairs it would probably conform to current ADB without common areas alarm, but those with three flats per landing would not- so is detection and alarm in the common areas a suitable compensation for the lack of a lobby to the stair on the one hand- or an extra 50% fire risk opening into the single stair?
No black and white answer I am afraid.

[jayjay]

Thanks Kurnal
What I need is the details on the smoke ventilation of the staircases.

I have just visited some 14 storey blocks of flats (two staircases)  that were in the process of having all the windows replaced. Non of the new windows in the staircases are capable of being  opened and there is no other form of smoke ventilation.

The flats were probably built in the late sixties early seventies and I do remember CP3 gave the standards for that time. I am considering recommending automatic smoke vents but wish to show that when the flats were built they would have had at least openable windows or louvre vents.

Also was emergency lighting recommended for the exit staircases? in these flats non has been installed.

A scan of the relevant sections would be great if you could oblige.

[kurnal]

On their way Jayjay- will be scanned by the end of the afternoon.

[kurnal]

Jayjay have scanned the lot but its ended up as 42 megs so have burned a cd. If you pm me I will post it to you.

[BRG]

Dear Kurnal,
thanks for your reply, I have visited the site and advised against the necessity of fitting an alarm system.
thanks to all member for the input.
regards
BRG