Communal Living

[kurnal]

A group of 9 friends and work colleagues share a  large house in the city which they own as tenants in common. When one leaves, the fellowship recruits someone new to buy their share. They each have their  own room and share the bathrooms kitchens and lounges. Its a three storey house. The nearest thing I can relate it to is a student house but its owned by the occupiers and to all intents and purposes a single private dwelling for an informal extended family, they look after each other and often cook for each other sometimes as a whole and sometimes in groups.. They have asked for simple fire safety advice (on a goodwill basis).

Legally is it a HMO? Does the Fire Safety Order apply?

[Tom Sutton]

I would consider it to be a HMO but the local housing authority is the only one who could give definitive answer. Check out http://www.firesafe.org.uk/assets/docs/hmodefinition.pdf and http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2004/ukpga_20040034_en_1 which may help.

[kurnal]

Thankyou TWS

The answer is in Schedule 14 of your second link.- the Housing Act.
It is not an HMO - schedule 14 lists premises that are not consideredt obe HMOs - and as usual nearly everything that the National and Local Government owns is excluded  along with:

Buildings occupied by owners
6 (1) Any building which is occupied only by persons within the following paragraphs—
(a) one or more persons who have, whether in the whole or any part of it, either the freehold estate or a leasehold interest granted for a term of more than 21 years;
(b) any member of the household of such a person or persons; .............

As they all own a share of the freehold it is not an HMO.

[Clevelandfire]

HI Kurnal
I was always told that the crooks of the definition of a HMO was that there had to be a landlord involved in the equation somewhere down the line. So lets say we take your scenario but add a landlord whom isn't one of the group of friends then I would say it is a HMO.
I think the example you give is the only time now where something could be defined as being a "shared house". There are still a lot of landlords out there renting out properties trying to call them shared houses but in reality are now HMOS

[Tom Sutton]

Kurnal, I thank you I should have read my own advice on my web page but I will have to revise my flow chart and refer to Schedule 14.

Exemptions from the HMO definition.

Certain types of buildings will not be HMO's for the purpose of the Act, other than Part One (HHSRS) and are, therefore, not subject to licensing.

These include,

Buildings, or parts of buildings, occupied by no more than two households each of which comprise a single person, for example two person flat shares.

Managed or owned by a public body, such as the police or the NHS or an LHA or a Registered Social Landlord,

Where the residential accommodation is ancillary to the principal use of the building, for example, religious establishments, conference centres,

Student halls of residence, where the universities are specified as exempt by order,

Buildings regulated otherwise than under the Act, such as care homes, bail hostels, and the description of which are specified in regulations,

Buildings entirely occupied by freeholders or long leaseholders. (But note the problem of mixed occupancy properties.)

For more details check out Schedule 14 of the Housing Act 2004.

[PhilB]

Whether or not it is an HMO is of little relevance, the question to be asked is "is it a domestic premises?". From the description given I would say that some parts are not domestic premises as they are shared e.g.bathroom, kitchen & lounge.

In my opinion the fire safety order applies to those parts.

[jokar]

I agrre the only exempted premises for the RR(FS)O are domestic premises.  It is quite clearly not an HMO but it does have shared accommodation and therfore those parts fall under the Order exactly as if it was a student let.  Again, FRA and fire policy to be completedplus evac plan and all the other bits where necessary for the shared bits alone giving consideration of course to the relevant person theme.

[kurnal]

Thanks to all for your valued opinions.

I need to further research the definition of domestic premises in terms of the RRO as I perceive that as the fellowship lives as a single unit there are no parts of the house that are not domestic premises- no one can be said to own any particular part or room in the building they all own a share of the freehold. There are no common areas that are the responsibility of any person above anyone else.

[CivvyFSO]

I think it is the 'single private dwelling' part that confuses the matter. It is definitely a private dwelling. Single though? Dunno tbh. We can safely ignore the housing act and any HMO reference. RRO applies? I will be brave and disagree with PhilB and say the shared areas are part of a single private dwelling. It is one house, and it is private. 9 people owning it matters no more than 2 people owning it. (Man and wife, man and man, friend and friend, friend and friend and friend...)

I think you may be getting single private dwelling and 'household' (From the housing act) confused. (Although we lack a good definition of single private dwelling.)

I reserve the right to completely change my opinion on this matter if people shout loud enough.

[PhilB]

I would never shout at you Civvy...but some nasty people might! In the situation Kurnal describes you are probably correct and it probably is a domestic premises.

But, it is not black & white. You would have to examine tenacy agreements and leases etc to examine the extent of the occupation. Some case law  would be useful.

[kurnal]

I agree with your view on this CivvyFSO and whilst I am clear this is NOT an HMO have advised them with a whole handful of caveats that I think it is not subject to the Fire Safety Order  for this particular group of people who share a single dwelling and occupy it  mainly as a single family would.

[CivvyFSO]

Indeed. I don't think it is black and white at all, but I would say that the problem seems to be caused by the lack of a definition of 'single private dwelling'.